Tropical M41

[90th Light]

White piping became an increasingly more comman colour in Afrika after the arrival of the 164 light Division from Crete to reinforce the El-Alamein front in August 1942. Even though units like JR 125 did become a Panzer Grenadier regiment. Many of these troops were still wearing their white infantry piping all through their time in Afrika. Also the troops in JR 47 sent from the 22 (LL) Infantry Division in Crete in late 42 and early 43 had white piping. I agree it is a scarce colour for collectors to try and get but not rare like the orange of the Military Police or grey of the Propaganda troops.

There are definately DAK side caps with no makers mark only a size marking and having a soutache. They have been pictured on this forum when there was a thread talking about the rising price of such caps a year or two ago. I saved the images, some had two grommets instead of one which I had never seen before.
I think they were offered for sale at the Max or SOS along with maker marked ones. Many collectors were asking if they were good or not. Could have been some dealer in Italy who had them for sale which is why I might have confused it with Italian Front. Do any members of the forum remember these caps ?

Look forward to what others can add, Chris

[dakcollector]

Tropical side cap and "M41" thoughts

There is currently one example of a tropical side cap with TWO grommets on each side (comparable to the visored field caps) being offered on Grenadier Militaria's website. Several years ago I owned an identical cap with the same waffenfarbe. I've only known of three examples of this cap (including the cap on Grenadier) and all three had panzergrenadier waffenfarbe and only a size stamp (no maker's stamp).

I find this side cap to be extremely unusual (and quite interesting!) for obvious reasons and really don't know what to think of it (which is why I eventually let my cap go in a trade). The cap has several reaffirming features (nice OD cotton cloth, waffenfarbe & insignia) as well as some distractions such as the grommets & lack of a maker's ink stamp. You have to draw your own conclusions. However, I've never seen what I would consider an original factory-made tropical side cap without a makers stamp (name or RB#).

By the way, getting back to the original question on the "M41" tropical cap with smoke waffenfarbe, I believe it's a reproduction for the following reasons:

1. This is a MINT condition first pattern (no oil cloth sweat band) tropical field cap and should definitely have a mint condition maker's ink stamp!
2. Based on the photos, the lining is not comparable to the cotton material (and color) of period caps. The cotton weave it much tighter (better quality) compared to original caps.
3. The waffenfarbe is questionable ... simply compare this to Giorgio's incredibly rare side cap.
4. The grommets - As a mint/unissed cap, where is the baked-on enamel on the exterior of these grommets? Even if they flaked off, there should be at least some evidence of enamel (not paint!) on these grommets.

Of course, I'm just expressing (and explaining) my opinion here and anyone can agree/disagree. It's a great world out there!

[90th Light]

Hello dak collector, thank you for confirming you have seen such a side-cap. I will try and find out if I can post the images I have saved. The seller had a hoard of caps by different makers and different soutaches. All the maker marked caps were known makers and text book examples. The strange ones were the ones with no maker only a size and ones with two grommets. The seller had got all the caps together at one time. I think they were part of the famous "Bee-hive" find in southern Germany in the 1980's but I may stand corrected on this. May be some other member of the forum can remember and refer us back to that thread.

The reason why I saved the images is because they were such a wonderful reference and I remember thinking at the time that it was interesting that some had no makers mark yet a soutache when M41's were being dismissed on this forum very quickly for that reason. Do such M41's exist ? It would seem possible when one considers the change to RB numbers and the fact that the manufacturers did this with other head-gear in the period 1942 to 1945. Some even earlier.

I also agree smoke/chemical-troop soutache in DAK is rare.

Many thanks, Chris

[90th Light]

I have just gone back and had another look at the M41 which started this thread and I have two questions

1/ Is that soutache the colour for smoke troops or the 1941 red-brown colour for reconnaissance ?

2/ How many members have seen Aluminum grommets. They are rare on WW2 German caps but they were used on a range of caps. The point is you can not have baked enamel on Aluminum ?

Could any-one clarify this for me. It is always hard with-out holding the item.

Thanks, Chris

[John Hodgin]

Although I am not a Heer DAK collector, I have seen and studied some premier DAK collections. I would not purchase this cap, nor do I feel good about it. It is too mint for the markings to be faded or washed out. I have seen many mint M40s and the marks are always there. There are many other "issues" as well. Just another opinion, but I'd be willing to bet that experienced DAK colllectors like Dal McGuirk and David Bunch would agree.

Giorgio's caps are autentic, one lookers, and wonderful examples!

[billbert]

Lime green overseas double vent size mark only..Had one 25 years ago..If its the twin sister then its real IMHO ...Billbert

[B. N. Singer]

[QUOTE=John Hodgin] I would not purchase this cap, nor do I feel good about it. It is too mint for the markings to be faded or washed out.
Giorgio's caps are autentic, one lookers, and wonderful examples

All need to choose for themselves for whatever reason(s); I agree entirely with Mr. Hodgin as quoted above.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Guys, I have no problem accepting that the M40 / 41 cap which started this thread could be bad ? All I am trying to establish is why ?

I am finding it interesting however that DAK side-caps with only a size, a soutache but no makers mark did exist and my question to all on this forum is could such an M41 exist ? I can not see why it could not be so. If I can get a friend to post some pictures, I will soon add to this thread images of such a side-cap taken from a German DAK prisoner.

Thanks for the replys, Chris