Luft tropical overseas cap

[John Hodgin]

Jos, hope you dream about something other than Berolina markings
And yes, many old, and current superb fakes have authentic insignia. Ask Ralph Heinz about some of the fake Heer M-40 caps with real insignia. Many fake smocks from the 1980s also had real eagles.......so?

But Jos, what are you trying to convince me of? I said from the begining the cap looked good. I just want to see a worn example with REAL, not hearsay, WW II provenance.

Gene, when you have time, please post a close up of the eagle's head on your 41 dated officer's Berolina.

Ciao,
John

[Willi Z.]

Good discussion, one that is making me think. Here is mine, that appears identical to the one which initiated this thread. I remember when these could be found at major shows. All in mint condition. But, with fade lines. Mine certainly has a line between under the flap and the rest of the cap. I know where John may take this in regards to the stamping.

I certainly trust John's opinion on tropical matters. But, the smell, feel, etc of this cap is just too good to easily dismiss.

[Willi Z.]

..

[John Hodgin]

Hey Willi,

Am in now, call if you want.

And another question. Why, in an unissued cap like Willi's, is the ink stamp so faint?

[alexandre]

Just a thought...If these overseas cap are original , it's difficult for me to imagine why Berolina put this stamp ONLY on this type !

[francis006]

Very nice cap Gene
Sorry to ask ,not sure ,but does your off have eyes ?

Just a thought...If these overseas cap are original , it's difficult for me to imagine why Berolina put this stamp ONLY on this type !

Alexandre , i just can say stamps from 40 to 42 (on different types) of "known original" Berolina caps i saw can have slight variations but are on the same "style" . This one is different in many way so again ???

Jack ,could you try to make better pics of the off one ( stamp and eagle )please

Interesting thread

[Dennis S]

[And another question. Why, in an unissued cap like Willi's, is the ink stamp so faint?[/QUOTE]

It may not actually be faded , but a faint stamp, eg. not enough ink on stamp,
incorrect pressure needed for a nice dark stamp, etc. etc.
I imagine these were stamped by hand.

[Jos L C]

[And another question. Why, in an unissued cap like Willi's, is the ink stamp so faint?

It may not actually be faded , but a faint stamp, eg. not enough ink on stamp,
incorrect pressure needed for a nice dark stamp, etc. etc.
I imagine these were stamped by hand.

Well,like you say..less ink,less pressure..,sometimes faint or half stamps are found in other un-issued items too.
Same on badges,some are deep,some are very faint,half,double,upsidedown..
Maybe a issue now,but apparently not those days.

Jos.

[John Hodgin]

Just a thought...If these overseas cap are original , it's difficult for me to imagine why Berolina put this stamp ONLY on this type !

This is the central problem Alexandre. As I said, we need to find issued and worn examples of the style you first posted and reliable history about them.

Otherwise you have to assume that at the Berolina firm in 1942 this may have been said:

"We are going to make two styles of ink stamps for our tropical caps for this year, each will have a different type font. One font will match ALL the other caps we produce during the war; the other will not. In caps with the standard font, we will also stamp the size. (Which is standard practice for all other makers and Berolina) In caps with the other font, we will write the size with a ball point pen. In the ball point pen sized caps we will only use the eagles without eyes. And lastly, we will issue the standard marked caps, they will go all over Africa and Italy. We will not issue any of the pen sized caps, we will put them away because collectors of militaria will covet them in the future."

[J Melvin]

Or, it could go something like this:

"Oh shyte! What were we thinking of in invading Russia? A two front war (actually three with Afrika). Not even Napoleon was that crazy! Ramp up production. We need tropical Luftwaffe uniforms not only in Afrika now, but also across the Med and southern Russia. Damn, it's hot down there. What do you mean our suppliers cannot supply insignia? And we don't have enough stamps to keep up with production? Material? Get it. Regardless of source. Surely some of these countries we have invaded have textile mills. Finally, if we can't do it, subcontract it and stick our name on it! Just get it done. Herr Speer will have it no other way."

Just another scenario. Not all of the tropical items that were used by the Wehrmacht went to Afrika and Italy. Good quantities went East and to other parts of the Med as well.

Would it make you more or less comfortable if these caps were coming out of the former Soviet bloc? I think that it is fair to say that most western collectors have no idea what all was used exclusively in the East. These caps may be one of those items.

I find no issue with the caps. Despite a different stamp and insignia, construction appears to be spot on. But, because of these differences, as has been pointed out, they will never command the prices of the other style marked caps.

John, you said earlier that you had one issue that you wouldn't divulge in the thread. Would you mind private messaging me what that is? Thanks!

[John Hodgin]

Material? Get it. Regardless of source. Surely some of these countries we have invaded have textile mills. Finally, if we can't do it, subcontract it and stick our name on it! Just get it done. Herr Speer will have it no other way."

So Jack, you are telling me that were in such a dire need for these subcontracted caps that after the hectic and rushed production, they bundled them up and stored them all?


I'm afraid I can not PM you about the other element in these caps. Nothing between us, but what I would say would cause bad feelings among some of my friends, I won't do that.

[Gene]

I'll have to look later to see if the eagle on my Berolina Berlin officer example has an "eye"; if it does, it will be an eye made of the same thread that the rest of the eagle is made of. Do you guys remember seeing the repro M41 and tropical overseas caps that Walt Kanzler used to sell out of Der Gauleiter? They were beautifully made, supposedly came out of Poland. I have a LW tropical officer's overseas cap that was made in Poland, and the quality of his werincredible.

[J Melvin]

John, I'm not saying that they were all stored. I am saying that they potentially were used on the Eastern Front, where not so much comes out to the collector community. Unused bundles found after the war.

Believe me, I understand your argument and really don't find fault with it. I had the same feeling that you have about these caps when all of the mint, soutached Heer tropical caps started hitting the market last year. Every flavor. Why?

Unlike the Heer caps and the moldy LW tropical trousers, though, nobody seems to be able to trace the original source of these caps. And regardless, I don't think we are talking thousands of unissued caps. Hundreds - probably. Only enough that could have been pigeon holed somewhere to be found 30 some odd years later while cleaning out a warehouse. I've never heard from where they came into the collector market. Does anyone know?

[John Hodgin]

Hi Gene,

Thanks for posting the photo of your eagle eagle, but yes, as Francis said, another photo showing the eye better would be helpful. And should it have no eye, as Jos said, it is no biggie. Jos is correct, many cap eagles do not have eyes. And, as I have stated here many times, some Luft. caps eagles can look really weird.

The main thing is finding variations in these odd marked caps. I think examples seen so far are TOO consistent.

I have seen smocks, made in the same month, by the same firm, with different breast eagles. So, I'd like to see one of these caps with an original, but different eagle. Like one with an eye

[Jos L C]

Hmmm,not much of a standard..


Jos.