SS officer buckle opinions please

[Patrick W]

Hi Guys,

I have this worn and damaged piece on the estand and have been asked to post it for discussion- please would you be so kind as to let e know what you think

My thoughts are it is an unmarked Juttner buckle.

many thanks

Patrick

[Ric Ferrari]

Patrick,

by reverse pic, buckle appears by two parts glued together (buckle disk + catch plate)…...black arrows show where I see possibly glue.

Assuming I'm right, did they glue together two original parts or a repro buckle disk with an original catch plate ?

Ric

[Ric Ferrari]

…..and here's another one showing unmessed with crimps….to compare.

Ric

[SScollector]

At least, the main part of this buckle appears to be a definite reproduction, imo.

Chris

[Patrick W]

Ric

Looking closely I think you may be correct that the reverse section has been out at some point and glued back in.

The disc is genuine IMO - in hand I don;t see any casting signs- it has some old pitting from cleaned zinc rot and the typical cracking from the poor quality zinc you can't fake as far as I am aware- so it appears two original parts glued back together.

Chris, thank you, IMO the disc is genuine- is there anything you can see that stands out as bad about it?

many thanks

Patrick

[SScollector]

I think that the most obvious problems would be the eagle's feet and also the chest details and the lettering in the motto.
Here is an original, courtesy of John T., for comparison.
Just my thoughts,

Chris

[Patrick W]

thanks Chris- the areas you mention have significant wear and have been flattened/ gouged in areas- I will take some extra pics tomorrow- nice example that you posted- thanks for that

[SScollector]

No problem! Here is one more example, this one from my own collection.

Chris

[Ric Ferrari]

thanks Chris- the areas you mention have significant wear and have been flattened/ gouged in areas- I will take some extra pics tomorrow- nice example that you posted- thanks for that

Patrick,

I also suggest to take a picture focused on pebbling around swastika (see example from my collection).
That's an area protected by wear and repro by casting usually do not reproduce fine pebbling found on original ones.

Ric

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

This is how one can buy a fake zinc plate and add whatever he/she wants. Have fun, compare details....

[Patrick W]

Thanks Jean Pierre but that is a completely different design to the buckle I have- that is a fake of the Overhoff- mine is certainly Jüttner design- it has the flaws under the bottom feathers on each side also correct stippling flaws which are easy to compare from the photos shown of mine and the other 2 examples posted.

Granted the detail of the pebbling is not as sharp on mine which can not be down to wear to the buckle but could be caused by wear to the die.

I will take some measurements and post some comparison photos this evening.

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Fake GWL

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

ORIGINALS Unmarked Jûttner

[Patrick W]

The buckle in question measures 51 x 51 mm so if anyone has one they could measure that would be greatly appreciated. It shows no sign of casting and something I think that leans strongly to it's favour is the cracking to the zinc which is seen with some frequency on genuine buckles.

These Juttner pieces in particular seem to have been made from a very poor quality of base metal indicating I would guess 1944-5 production. They are most commonly found in awful condition being described as ground dug although I think it likely that many have just been affected by poor storage and damp and deteriorated severely as a result.

Here is an example from eMedals showing this cracking

[Patrick W]

here is another unmarked piece in poor condition - again emedals stock which is possibly a ground find but like mine it shows a reduced level of detail to the areas of the pebbling behind the swastika and wording- a later strike from the same die as the others shown in my opinion.