S S by Overhoff - post war conversion

[David North]

I dearly hope that I am not breaking the Forum rules by this new thread.

This buckle is currently displayed on an English dealers site and whilst not wishing to stimulate a sale, I thought that it may be of interest to the Forum, due to the continuing enthusiasm towards all things SS related.

I think that it is a post 1945 conversion or rather de nazification by Overhoff and not worn during the war years.

An unusual buckle and again, I thought that it may be of interest to those whose collections include steel SS.

Apologies in advance Marc if the thread breaches the integrity of the Forum.

Regards,

David

[David North]

reverse

[Colorado]

Hi David - What do you think was the intent of the conversion? Interesting looking.

[David North]

Jeff

I am sure that this buckle has been discussed before and at some time on the Forum, although I find the search facility here a little random . In addition, possibly there has been mention of this buckle, issued with the olc in a diamond logo, stamped on the lip.

As towards the intended post 1945 use, I have no firm opinions.

It seems almost inconceivable however that any of the occupying forces would sanction the wear of a converted SS buckle, albeit with the swastika and logo masked.

Regards,

David

[Don Scowen]

Now that is a strange looking thing. It will be interesting to see peoples opinions opinions on it.

Thanks for posting David

Cheers
Don

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Jeff

I am sure that this buckle has been discussed before and at some time on the Forum, although I find the search facility here a little random .

You are indeed correct since I already posted a similar buckle a long while ago (before resigning as moderator of this forum) and I cannot even find back my own thread!

So, here is the location where you can still see it along with its former (pre-1945) look.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?...2&m=6560073472

[David North]

Thanks Jean Pierre

It would appear that I not only forgot the original source and thread, however also, the forum which it appeared !

Why would Overhoff do this to such a politically charged and sensitive buckle ?

Regards,

David

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Thanks Jean Pierre

It would appear that I not only forgot the original source and thread, however also, the forum which it appeared !

David you were right! Your brain is not getting old like mine! This buckle (Post War SS Overhoff brown painted) was indeed posted in the Wehrmacht Awards Forum. I did it a long while ago when the buckle was in someone else property. I even recall Pieter Verbruggen naming it "Chinese SS" . But I was not able to find back my own thread using the "SEARCH" feature. So, this is the reason why I posted the link where the buckle is still (along with another very interesting SS buckle). It is not the first time I notice threads or posts diseapearing from the WA buckles forum.

Why would Overhoff do this to such a politically charged and sensitive buckle ?

Regards,

David

I really don't know. But are we sure it is Overhoff who did it?? Those SS buckles were marked before modification, not after. So whoever had modified this buckle did it on a already marked buckle. But does not mean the original maker is liable for the modification. Just a point to consider.

[oli4vercammen]

denazified buckles

Hello, I've a French buckle book where they are put in a chapter "German police after 45".
Olivier

[buckle1]

I've seen this buckle on a dealers site some time ago listed as a Russian conversion during the war. That doesn't make much sense considering the style of the stamping of the conversion which one would think would be a star if it were Russian. A post war conversion makes more sense but for what?


Bill

[Marc verstraete]

I’ve seen three of these “not modified” “ late war”?? SS buckles (including the one posted on the GD forum), Non of them could be traced to a veteran or reliable source. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

They where just sold exorbitantly expensive by a couple of dealers who saw me coming…. I refused both times. If for long time,(until a few months ago) I considered these “ non altered” SS buckles as absolutely original I have since changed my mind and I start to have doubts about them…. <o></o>

Overhoff did produce post war buckles (fakes) there are not many of them on the market but they exist. Most of them are considered as “real “ by the collectors but I know they where made to order by a European dealer…I had a long interview with this old time dealer who used to order lots of stuff from the original German factories…. I own two such post war Overhoff fake buckles; a WH and a Police. The markings are identical, this is also the marking for the Overhoff post war buckles and material, one just have to look at the post war German army material made by Overhoff to see the same marking. The “diamond” logo is almost square instead having the real diamond shape as seen on pre war and wartime 1942 / 43 buckles… Nothing says Overhoff did not produce post war SS buckles ordered by the same dealer but had problems with them and converted them to the actual “eagle with rising sun”…. It is also impossible to cut out the SS motto and the swastika on a buckle that has already been folded! To “de-nazifiy” these SS buckles and to ad the “rising “ sun the buckle has to by flat, this means, not finished. <o></o>

In the picture one can see a “complete” rising sun buckle, the marking is identical. So the mystery remains…<o></o>

Marc<o></o>

[Marc verstraete]

not clear on the picture, but the same marking...

[Marc verstraete]

Fake post war Overhoff stamped WH buckle, these buckle where common on the Belgian and Dutch flea markets during the 70’s, they where recognisable on the “Pigeon” like eagle. Note the OLC logo!!!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>

Marc

[Marc verstraete]

.

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Shown on the top photo is the exact same Overhoff logo on a 1939 SS officer buckle (obviousely ground dug):

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=74967

Even if this SS officer buckle could have been over stamped after war and later buried I do not see any reason for such.
I can guarantee it is the exact same logo (size and shape) since I already compared it to the one on the brown modified (since I own both this SS officer buckle and the brown modified).

Also, even if the SS EM modified could have been produced after war (why not), its base is the exact same as many Overhoff WWII unmarked and marked production. Made with one of the exact same die used for a large WWII production, fold with the exact same folding tool which remained constant from 1942 to the end of the war, exact same catch used for a large WWII production and exact same electric welding spots left on catch feet which is also found on many very late Overhoff production (reliable veteran source).
This is a rather different situation than the two shown buckles! One is not at all WWII era and the other with swastika was not made with a WWII era die as Mr. Verstraete pointed out (I fully rely on his competence for this matter) but rather made with a post war die to satisfy whatever order.

I also have to point that the cutting(s) was possible on a complete assembled buckle! Maybe it could be impossible to perform if it was die cuttings (punch) but it was not. X25 magnificent reveals jagged edges all around the cutted part. Metal is also gone on numerous points at random (metal thickness not constant). So, I strongly believe that whoever did the job just drilled a hole to pass the blade thru the metal and used a band saw. The thick paint also helped for the finish since it did covered well some jags.
I can take close up/high resolution photos of the jagged edges if you wish: it is obvious.

Last, but not least (and this refers to non modified SS EM's with Overhoff logo). I personnaly know only one of such buckle, the one posted "out of the woods" in the GDC Forum. I tried to buy this buckle from the person who posted it but was unsuccessful since did not even reply to my offer to buy it
SS buckles collectors crazy about markings are not numerous to say the least. Most don't even care what the marking is and will not add a dime for a scarce one. I know weird things have been done on original specimen but everytime it was uncorrect and this was the reson why we were able to find rather quickly the forgery. So, why going in trouble to stamp a 100% genuine WWII SS buckle (or one where nobody could tell the difference) with a maker's trademark? And, above all, the correct one?

So, maybe the "big size" Overhoff marking is post war, but chances are slim. If it is original, another SS buckle bearing it will pop up soon or late from a reliable source. And so far I believe it will.