S S RZM 63 and S A RZM 63

[David North]

Don

Detail under the pin shroud and which are the faint remains of SS runes within a circle.

Regards,

David

[Don Scowen]

Don

Detail under the pin shroud and which are the faint remains of SS runes within a circle.

Regards,

David

Excellent, thanks for taking the time to show this

Cheers
Don

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Over stamped 57's (back) - JPR collection. Over stamped 57's can be found with different grades of grounding. On the vast majority remains only "Ges. Gesch.". On several only the "W" has been grounded. On very few the full primary marking "Ges.Gesch.MW" (as already wrote MW standing certainly for Martin Winter) has been left intact.

My personnal observation of many 57's and 63's during those last four years lead to believe there is no possibility to claim 57's or 63's without anything visible underneath are not in fact full grounded over stamped.
When grounding was performed by skilled worker nothing from the former marking was left visible. Of course, when former marking was in relief it was easy to made it diseapear. This is the reason why we can easily see older SS runes marking from former 57's on most 63's since this marking was large and deeply stamped.

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

SS runes stamped on 57's (JP Redeuilh collection)

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Two over stamped 57's with different grade of grounding. On one the very faint W is still visible (JP Redeuilh collection)

[John T]

Do you have any with the full "Ges.Gesch.MW" marking JP? (not overstamped with the codes)

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

No. The ones I know are all over stamped. Does not mean there is none but just I did not find one as of today.
It should be very logical to believe some were sold as such. It was indeed one of those buckles (marked in full and not over stamped) I was looking for it since the first day I introduced to the collector's lobby my over stamped with missing "W". Like for me it was a very first for most collectors and authors since too many are interested only in large collections. Maybe the reason why they did missed it? Many answers are still within collections of unknown collectors. I guess I am indeed right since I found more than I had expected (not millions but still...). I was convinced that having a buckle with the full marking should bring a name but was not expecting to find it on over stamped!
I am glad to have shared photos of this first buckle with Peter Nash for his book, along with evidence 57's and 63's were made using the exact same die. In fact, even if he is the one who convinced me to believe the missing part after the M was "üK" instead of "W", reading of his book triggered many owner of similar buckles to look at it and shared their buckles with me and ... bingo! A stone mint unissued with full marking and over stamping!
Those information to P. Nash should have remained a chat until strong evidence, not a printed matter. But at least the rough idea was already there since we were already talking about Martin Winter and S&L.

[SScollector]

I have a question. How could this manufacture's SS buckles
be marked "ges.gesch." when Overhoff was the designer of this buckle
and their buckles were also marked "ges.gesch."?
Someone please tell me how this could be.

Thanks! Chris

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

I have a question. How could this manufacture's SS buckles
be marked "ges.gesch." when Overhoff was the designer of this buckle
and their buckles were also marked "ges.gesch."?
Someone please tell me how this could be.

Thanks! Chris

This is a question everyone is asking, including myself. Reading the excellent articles wrote by Karl Ort* dealing with protected patents shows that registration under "Geschmacksmustergesetz" (protedted by law) did not contain any specific reference to the underlying law. The design was protected by law, but was it all the design or just part of it, etc... It was so vague that its meaning has been changed several times over the years following its introduction until it was totally abandoned by modern Germany.
57's (and so 63's) are the only SS buckles I know up to date to have the rope behind the eagle's head replaced by so heavy pebbling. So maybe there was the "By pass" design?
But my personnal belief since several years is royalties paid by one maker to the righteous patent/design holder would allow him to produce a similar item. In such case "Ges.Gesch.MW" would not mean MW is the patent holder but rather MW used a registered patent with total agreement from the righteous holder. But such design is still registered per rebound to the former holder and anyone else wishing to produce still need to pay royalties to the former.
My thought is based on several buckles with such issues: several SS and few HJ, all early ones. For SS the most interesting is the "Assmann" which bears in full "O&C ges. gesch." but does not seems to have ever been produced by Overhoff (design way too different from the well known Overhoff design). See http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=22910 and follow links.
For HJ it is the well known Assmann/Overhoff's. On one serie Assmann is shown as the patent holder and Overhoff the maker and on another serie it is vice versa (Christian / Wickie could tell you much more than anyone else on those two HJ buckles).

[SScollector]

Thank you very much, JP!