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    #1

    S S RZM 63 and S A RZM 63

    This is perhaps an unusual association and correlation of buckles.

    The now well documented SS 63 RZM, together with the less known SA, displaying a large RZM mark and 63 also.

    Presumably the first series of RZM codes for Steinhauer und Luck, although whether the buckles were made or distributed by this company, is still open for discussion.

    Regards,

    David
    Last edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:41 AM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    02
    Last edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:41 AM.

    Comment

      #3
      Originally posted by Renfield
      02
      A lovely pair if I may say so David. This is the first SS RZM 63 I've actually seen, lovely condition too, well done.

      Thanks for sharing.

      Cheers
      Don

      Comment

        #4
        Hello Don

        Thankyou for the response (the only so far!!) on this post and I assume that by a lovely pair, you are referring to the buckles rather than my perky little breasts.

        I must admit, I was staggered that this post did not receive more comments or responses as the combination of a SA and SS buckle with a RZM 63 designation, is not exactly an everyday scenario.

        What a great pity though that the buckles were not either Wehrmacht or steel SS related, as I am sure then, the responses would have been flooding in.

        Towards the forum rather than yourself, a gentle reminder that there is a tad more to NSDAP buckle collecting than SS and Wehrmacht - I promise you.

        Regards,

        David

        Comment

          #5
          As a sidenote: I believe that SS 57 buckles are related to the SS 63 buckles...as if you look closely you can see where one maker code was obliterated and the other numerical code added...JP will know more about this as it was he that told me about this.

          Comment

            #6
            John

            I think that the pedigree of these early and nickle silver SS buckles and especially the "63" and "57", is an interesting subject.

            What about the one though, totally devoid of markings ?

            Regards,

            David
            Last edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:41 AM.

            Comment

              #7
              02
              Last edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:41 AM.

              Comment

                #8
                Smashing buckle, David. Any ideas as to maker? The eagle and motto are quite different from that of an OLC nickel SS.
                I recently saw a rather fat SS eagle version buckle on the Collectors Guild site. I believe the pics are still there. Any ideas on that one?
                I have 3 nickel examples -- O&C ges. gesch.; RZM 36/36; RZM 57 SS.
                Alas, no digi cam.
                Regards,
                Kevin

                Comment

                  #9
                  Kevin - would dearly like to see images of your SS "57".

                  In connection with the SA 63 and the SS 63, I just do not know who the maker was. The extract from the Steinhauer und Luck catalogue which appears in the Catella publication "Gott mit Uns", shows the company with both an SA buckle (sunwheel swastika) and a SS, as a stock item.

                  I suppose Jean Pierre is our man on this one.

                  A guaranteed way to go completely ga ga is to embark on an exercise towards examing and comparing detail of "similar" buckles. Attached is a grouping of nickle silver SS roundels and I will leave it to the Forum to isolate design similarities and variations. I have tried and other than the glaringly obvious, have failed miserably.

                  The top three are all Overhoff stamped.

                  The first two of the bottom row are non marked and the one at the far right of the bottom row is the "63".

                  Regards,

                  David
                  Last edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:41 AM.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by John T
                    As a sidenote: I believe that SS 57 buckles are related to the SS 63 buckles...as if you look closely you can see where one maker code was obliterated and the other numerical code added...JP will know more about this as it was he that told me about this.
                    As I am saying since years RZM 57 SS marked SS Buckles and RZM 63 SS marked SS Buckles are the exact same. All over stamped RZM 57, RZM 57 SS and RZM 63 SS buckles I was able to see in details were made from the exact same die. There is an obvious distinctive mark left by the stamping die at the exact same place on all those buckles (back of swastika).

                    The question I was asking before was if RZM 57 SS and RZM 63 SS markings could be read as RZM 57 and RZM 63.
                    There is by now enough evidence to attest early RZM # ended as RZM M1/# (like RZM 24 = RZM M1/24 = Overhoff). So it is easy to put a name on RZM # marked SS buckles. But what about those early "RZM/SS" numbers since those 57's and 63's have SS runes added to their RZM# ? Can we follow the same principle? I am convinced for those two we safely can. Here are the reasons:
                    Full primary marking on over stamped RZM 57's is "Ges. Gesch. MW". Checking what M1/57 gives us: Martin Winter, Munich. So in turn (margin error been by now rather slim) M1/63 give us Steinhauer & Lück, Lüdenscheid. As shown in the Catella's book, the Steinhauer & Lücke catalog indeed proposed a early SS buckle as item # K 8966. I was not able to see any original S&L catalog myself, but what I could see by reprint was a good matching to 63's (and so 57's).

                    Remaining question is who actually made both 57 and 63's buckles? Martin Winter or S&L? S&L was (and still is) a major maker and odds are he was the one.
                    This idea is further enforced by another evidence: most 63's are in fact over stamped 57's. It is easy to see remains of the former 57's runes under the post sleeve / prongs assembly on later 63's marked SS buckles. I even have in my collection a 63 were not only part of the former 57's runes remains but also former RZM and 57 outlines!

                    But Martin Winter has buckles with the earliest marking. I know several over stamped 57's with pre-RZM marking "Ges. Gesch. MW" but not a single one from S&L with a pre-RZM marking.

                    So, could it be possible that Martin Winter was just a "screen" company? A S&L's sale outlet in the NSDAP birthplace (Munich/Bavaria) for whatever commercial reason?

                    Still many questions to answer.

                    It is also very interesting to note the exact same situation is also with Martin Winter / S&L SS cap buttons (early ones with stamped skull). Chris / SS collector was the person to bring me this other interesting point on cap skulls.
                    Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                    All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Kevin Rea
                      Smashing buckle, David. Any ideas as to maker? The eagle and motto are quite different from that of an OLC nickel SS.
                      I recently saw a rather fat SS eagle version buckle on the Collectors Guild site. I believe the pics are still there. Any ideas on that one?
                      I have 3 nickel examples -- O&C ges. gesch.; RZM 36/36; RZM 57 SS.
                      Alas, no digi cam.
                      Regards,
                      Kevin
                      Kevin,
                      The SS buckle you are talking about is mine. I still do not have a maker name to put on this particular SS buckle but I can guarantee some were ground dug. So, those ARE original.
                      There is also two variants of this SS buckle: one is with the typical U catch (as shown), and the second with a catch having short feet (like on steel SS buckles but shorter feet).
                      Attached Files
                      Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                      All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                      Comment

                        #12
                        I knew there had to be some connection between these
                        two manufactures, as the early nickel 57 and 63 marked skull cap buttons
                        are also identical to each other on the front sides.
                        However, I have never seen a 63 button that had an overstamp from a
                        previously 57 marked button, (or vise versa),
                        as was mentioned about the buckles.
                        Most of the 57 marked buttons only have an RZM, (no SS),
                        but all of the 63 marked buttons that I have seen, have both RZM and SS.
                        I don't know the reason for this either.
                        It is my guess, that these manufactures stopped
                        producing these items after the early years, because I have never seen
                        a skull button or an SS buckle marked 63 or 57,
                        that was made of any of the other materials, just the early nickel ones.
                        This is an interesting study.

                        Best, Chris

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Thanks Chris and Jean Pierre for the comments in relation to what I also regard as a most interesting post, even though still, I really cannot get overly excited about any SS buckle - give me an SA any day.

                          As a matter of interest and picking up on one of the points that Jean Pierre made, the SS 63 that I posted, atually has a very faint trace of a circle underneath the pin shroud.

                          If anybody would like an image, then let me know.

                          Regards,

                          David

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Renfield
                            As a matter of interest and picking up on one of the points that Jean Pierre made, the SS 63 that I posted, atually has a very faint trace of a circle underneath the pin shroud.

                            If anybody would like an image, then let me know.

                            Regards,

                            David
                            I certainly would please David. This thread has finally woken up & I am intrigued by this double marking.

                            Cheers
                            Don

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Sorry for my lack of interest for any buckle but SS. Always been, always be ...

                              I will post several other photos. But for now here are some 57's. All those buckles which will follow are in mine.

                              Over stamped 57
                              Attached Files
                              Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                              All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                              Comment

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