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**Ric Ferrari** · 01-16-2015, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Two more examples,

Tropical "Dunkelgelb RAL 7028" or Late War "Dunkelgelb RAL 7028" or both

???

That is the question,

Chris

Chris,

may you please show tabbed buckle reverse ?

TIA

Ric

**Guido L.** · 01-16-2015, 07:02 AM

Chris,
with regards to the belt I have to revise my statement. Yes, it seems that your EM belt was indeed converted from a belt intended initially for a 2-claw buckle.

As to the colour variations of steel WH buckles, I am still of the opinion that there was less regulation behind that as one could nowadays assume. It is no secret that many buckles been at South European/ Arfrican war places or came together with web material bear light or tan shaded colours. But you will find these colours also on buckles wich have never been there. Again, each maker used a different shade of fieldgrey. So my conclusion is, that there is a good chance that your buckle could be a "Süd-Front" item (I will generally not deny your observations). But in the end we have no compulsory evidence that your buckle is a "Süd-Front" item!
I hope that you understand what I mean - sorry English is not my mother tongue.
Best,
Guido

**Joda** · 01-16-2015, 12:43 PM

Hallo Chris,

I'd like to share with you my EM Heer buckle and belt, CTD1942, found recenetly here in northern Italy from an italian old veteran who fought in 1944-45 with the RSI alpine's unit of "Monterosa Division", and took it directly from a german soldier. As you know these men fought toghether with german units until the end of the war.
This belt is an officer-converted belt, with steel hook Schmolle u Co 44 and inner leather strap, crudely machine stiched to the belt, even though external holes are still present.
No doubts of the originality of this object; I had it directly from the old man...!
togheter with many other important wartime german objects, absolutely untouched..!

I think it is very similar to yours..!
Hope you like it!

Cheers

Joda

Attached Files

IMG_7018.jpg (100.0 KB, 134 views)

**Joda** · 01-16-2015, 12:44 PM

details..

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**Joda** · 01-16-2015, 12:45 PM

more..

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**Joda** · 01-16-2015, 12:46 PM

..more...

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**Joda** · 01-16-2015, 12:48 PM

..the last!

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**90th Light** · 01-17-2015, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Joda View Post

Hallo Chris,

I'd like to share with you my EM Heer buckle and belt, CTD1942, found recenetly here in northern Italy from an italian old veteran who fought in 1944-45 with the RSI alpine's unit of "Monterosa Division", and took it directly from a german soldier. As you know these men fought toghether with german units until the end of the war.
This belt is an officer-converted belt, with steel hook Schmolle u Co 44 and inner leather strap, crudely machine stiched to the belt, even though external holes are still present.
No doubts of the originality of this object; I had it directly from the old man...!
togheter with many other important wartime german objects, absolutely untouched..!

I think it is very similar to yours..!
Hope you like it!

Cheers

Joda

Thanks Joda,

well you have made my day for the following reasons;

1/ Your belt proves that my belt is not simply a one off example

2/ You have provided an example of the other type that Ric said he had seen in post number 15. An officer belt modified to EM/ NCO configuration without the holes being filled.

3/ Your belt was used by a German on the Italian Sud-Front and this is where my example was veteran brought back from also.

4/ Your clip is dated 1944. This establishes that they modified your belt in 1944 or 1945. Why not just punch an extra hole or two and issue the belt as a late war RB numbered type of belt with the adjustment holes punched directly into the leather ???

5/ The RB number on your belt helps us to work out where it was made or where it was modified ???

6/ Your belt also has a buckle made by "CTD" which is painted RAL 7028 sand/ tan/ brown exactly like mine. However your buckle is dated 1942, one year after mine. Is the use of RAL 7028 on these buckles for tropical use or simply just a late war paint of what was on hand ???

7/ Why go to all the trouble of refurbishing officer belts in 1944-45. Why not just issue them as belts for use. By 1944-45, is it really going to matter if an EM/ NCO is wearing an open frame buckle ???

8/ There is a lot of extra work in refurbishing that belt. The open frame buckle has to be removed and the belt cut for a clip. The clip has to be stitched on followed by the new leather adjustment tongue to hold the buckle. Why bother. Why not just use the existing holes for the EM/ NCO buckle. ???

9/ Was my belt refurbished before your belt. My belt has the officer adjustment holes plugged and my buckle is dated 1941. Makes me wonder if my belt was modified in 1943-44 ???

Again I can not say thank you enough for taking the time to post your example. This is a real help in understanding these. And on a final note to show you what I mean about going to all the trouble of plugging holes (or not) and adding a leather adjustment tongue. They actually did develop during the war an officer belt where the prongs of the open frame buckle could simply be inserted into the adjustment holes in the belt. It could then be done up and un-done quickly like an EM/ NCO belt. Here are some images of my example which was patented as "combat quick release" at the time it was made. Again why refurbish/ modify, why not just put the EM/ NCO buckle through the existing holes like a regular late war RB numbered belt ???

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 01-18-2015, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Guido L. View Post

Chris,
with regards to the belt I have to revise my statement. Yes, it seems that your EM belt was indeed converted from a belt intended initially for a 2-claw buckle.

As to the colour variations of steel WH buckles, I am still of the opinion that there was less regulation behind that as one could nowadays assume. It is no secret that many buckles been at South European/ Arfrican war places or came together with web material bear light or tan shaded colours. But you will find these colours also on buckles wich have never been there. Again, each maker used a different shade of fieldgrey. So my conclusion is, that there is a good chance that your buckle could be a "Süd-Front" item (I will generally not deny your observations). But in the end we have no compulsory evidence that your buckle is a "Süd-Front" item!
I hope that you understand what I mean - sorry English is not my mother tongue.
Best,
Guido

Hello again Guido,

thank you for confirming that you can now see how my belt has been modified from an officer belt. I appreciate you taking the time and your confirmation.

As far as the paint goes, I understand fully what you are saying and I do not disagree with you. Until recently, I had not paid much attention to RAL 7028 and the different shades of it. I had always just assumed it was late war 1943 onwards. Just like the German vehicles painted this colour. However, given the recent raging debate on the helmet forum about helmets found in the CZ painted this colour. I have become intrigued with this paint.

A/ Was there ever an intention for it to be a tropical issue colour ???

B/ Was it seen as a general purpose colour that could be used plain for tropical fronts but ideal for adding camouflage colours to adapt on other fronts ???

C/ Was just simply a late war ersatz paint used on buckles out of necessity at the end of the war 1944-45 because of shortages of other paints, colours, pigments etc ???

To make matters and even more confusing. The German sometimes wore full tropical uniforms in Italy but with leather belts, leather bayonet frog and leather boots. I have posted an image of such a German soldier below. The question, is the buckle on his belt regular field-grey, tropical olive green, RAL 7028 or some other colour that was used. Did they issued leather belts with tropical painted buckles in Italy 1943-45 ?

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 01-18-2015, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Ric Ferrari View Post

Chris,

may you please show tabbed buckle reverse ?

TIA

Ric

Hello Ric,

thank you for confirming that you have seen officer belts refurbished and modified in this manner to make EM/ NCO belts. I appreciate your help.

Here is the reverse image of the buckle painted RAL 7028 with web tab that you requested. One does not see the tan web examples very often. I have often wondered if they are later war 1943-44 or KM tropical issue 1942-43.

I look forward to your thoughts on the matter,

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 01-18-2015, 12:14 AM

Close up of the RAL 7028 paint on the tan web example,

Chris

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**90th Light** · 01-18-2015, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

A/ Was there ever an intention for it to be a tropical issue colour ???

B/ Was it seen as a general purpose colour that could be used plain for tropical fronts but ideal for adding camouflage colours to adapt on other fronts ???

C/ Was just simply a late war ersatz paint used on buckles out of necessity at the end of the war 1944-45 because of shortages of other paints, colours, pigments etc ???

To make matters and even more confusing. The German sometimes wore full tropical uniforms in Italy but with leather belts, leather bayonet frog and leather boots. I have posted an image of such a German soldier below. The question, is the buckle on his belt regular field-grey, tropical olive green, RAL 7028 or some other colour that was used. Did they issued leather belts with tropical painted buckles in Italy 1943-45 ???

Chris

Just to add to these questions above, images of a grenade carrying case painted in RAL 7028 sand/ tan/ brown has just been put up on the equipment forum;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=781421

This RAL 7028 grenade case is clearly marked for tropical use and looks to be dated 1944. It all starts to make one wonder what the intention of using RAL 7028 was ?

Here are some of the images of the tropical case but you can see more on the link,

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 01-18-2015, 12:33 AM

Close up of some of the markings on the grenade carrying case painted RAL 7028 sand/ tan/ brown and labelled for tropical use.

Is RAL 7028 a tropical equipment paint used from late 1942 to 1944 ???

Chris

Attached Files

**90th Light** · 01-18-2015, 02:27 AM

Is the date 1944 ?

Chris

Attached Files

**Ric Ferrari** · 01-18-2015, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

.....8/ There is a lot of extra work in refurbishing that belt. The open frame buckle has to be removed and the belt cut for a clip. The clip has to be stitched on followed by the new leather adjustment tongue to hold the buckle. Why bother. Why not just use the existing holes for the EM/ NCO buckle. ???

Chris

Chris,

as to your question by 8/ :

do not forget distance between adjustment holes on officer's belt is different than on EM's, so you have to add an adjustment tongue to allow EM's prongs fitting easily.

Ric

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Converted Officer belt to EM belt "Sud-Front"

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