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**Schlange** · 12-27-2014, 05:24 AM

Right on the start, bad Assman and RZM logo catches the eye.

Schlange

http://www.mojalbum.com/schlange88/albumi

**keifer kahn** · 12-27-2014, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by Belten View Post

By the way, when you refer to the 'transitional' Assmann M4/39 markings, you are referring to a different buckle than Kir. The very early RZM-era Assmann markings are the same as those seen on the fake buckle in post number 1. That is, RZM 17, that being Assmann's M1 code. The M4/39 buckles with the Assmann logo were, of course, produced later. This latter group exists in nickel over steel, as does another type bearing the M4/39 code without the Assmann logo. In my opinion, the buckles produced without the Assmann logo were made after those with the logo, because manufacturers' logos were forbidden in approximately 1935.

I'm not aware of any nickel over steel HJ buckles with the RZM 17 code, nor any nickel bucklers with the M4/39 code. Either or both might exist, though, of course.

In any event, that doesn't change the fact that the buckle which started this thread is a reasonably obvious fake. The timeframe in which these buckles (painted steel) were produced isn't even close to the timeframe in which the nickel over steel examples were. In my opinion, the production of nickel over steel HJ buckles by Assmann probably ended around the mid-1930s, at which time they were phased out by aluminum. I believe that painted steel buckles then came into production in or around 1940. To be clear, both of these opinions are just that: opinions. I don't have facts to support them, although other collectors may be aware of some original period documentation which will either support or refute what I've said here.

I totally agree,

I was simply addressing KLr,s statement that the company trademark and rzm mark shouldnt appear on a steel buckle.The way i interpreted it , he meant
any steel buckle of any period.I tend to read things literally.

My point was they did.On Nickel plated steel ones they did..It was a broad statement by KLr and i was trying to clarify it for Steve.

On painted later steel buckles ...no that shouldnt.

I have a Nickel plated steel Steinhauer and luck HJ buckle.Marked Rzm KH M/4/49 Plus logo.

That would be pre-35 production i assume??

regards KK

**Belten** · 12-27-2014, 06:54 AM

Markus, thanks for the photographic exhibit. :

Illustrations really help make things a bit less confusing.

Originally posted by keifer kahn View Post

I have a Nickel plated steel Steinhauer and luck HJ buckle.Marked Rzm KH M/4/49 Plus logo.

That would be pre-35 production i assume??

It's tricky to know exactly when something was made based on regulations, because we know for sure that some companies didn't follow them (at least not right away). The fact that your buckle has both 'KH' (Koppelschloss Hersteller) and an M4 prefix strongly suggests an early date of manufacture, because the latter superseded the former and they don't often appear together.

**keifer kahn** · 12-27-2014, 04:57 PM

Thanks for the reply,

I was under the impression it was 35 and one source told me potentially 36.

If interested my buckle is identical to this one,

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Hj+m4%2F49

**Belten** · 12-27-2014, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by keifer kahn View Post

Thanks for the reply,

I was under the impression it was 35 and one source told me potentially 36.

If interested my buckle is identical to this one,

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Hj+m4%2F49

In my opinion, that buckle most likely predates 1936. The information from Chad Williams in that thread is, of course, absolutely correct. Exceptions and aberrations aside, the chronology is:

Unmarked/maker logo or name only. These may include something like "ges. gesch."

RZM with first series (M1) markings, but without "M1." These may or may not include additional marks, such as "ges. gesch." or additional maker logos and other assorted markings. Generally the numbers without prefix will correspond to the M1 series, but there are notable exceptions, such as Paul Cramer. The early buckles from that maker are marked 'RZM 72,' with no prefix, which in this case corresponds to the M5 series.

Buckles using the 'KH' ('Koppelschloss Hersteller') or 'UE' ('Uniform Effekten') prefix. These generally correspond to M4 and M5, respectively, although again, there are exceptions.

Buckles using both 'KH'/'UE' and 'M4.' These are probably the least common, in my opinion. They are most likely transitional in nature.

Buckles using 'M4' or 'M5' prefixes. 'M4' was the code used for buckles, but some are inexplicably marked 'M5' (for uniform fittings and buttons). Evidently, confusion continued throughout the years, as some painted steel buckles which are probably of mid- to late-war vintage exhibit the unusual 'M5' series markings.

**Belten** · 12-27-2014, 06:19 PM

Also, an additional marking less commonly encountered than the other two is 'MA.' These correspond usually with M1 codes, and may be an abbreviation either for 'Metall Abzeichen' or 'Metall Ausrüstung.'

**Belten** · 12-27-2014, 06:48 PM

Here is an order from the RZM:

Immer wieder stellen wir fest, daß Koppelschlosser für S.A., H.J. und D.J. verkauft werden, die weder mit dem Schutz-zeichen der R.Z.M. noch mit der Berechtigungsnachweis-Nummer der Herstellerfirma gestempelt sind. Daher fordern wir alle Verkaufsstellen und Großhändler auf, solche Bestände unter Einsendung je eines Musters zahlenmäßig genau zu melden.

Firmen, die diese Bestände bereits an uns gemeldet gemeldet und die Freigabe hierfür schon erlangt haben, brauchen keine Bestands-meldung mehr einzureichen. Wir machen darauf aufmerksam, daß Koppelschlosser, die nicht zur Freigabe gemeldet sind, dir Beschlagnahme verfallen. Bestandsmeldungen werden nur berücksichtigt, wenn sie bis spätestens 15. Nov. 1934 bei uns eingegangen sind.

My German isn't very good, but I believe this says something about how manufacturers should include both the RZM license number as well as the RZM logo.

**keifer kahn** · 12-28-2014, 06:10 PM

Thank u for the extra enlightening information.

Much appreciated and have a Good new year.

Regards KK

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