hello all.....I have been offerd these two buckles....from my research...I have ascertained that the brass on brass buckle of these two is correct and I believe to be the real deal...I need your guys help on the nickle rondel buckle listed here with it.....prongs have a slight gillotine cut one up one down, but it is well worn...need help before forking out some good money on these....please leave me with your thoughts...thanks..chad
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the buckle with the domed reverse is the brass on brass.....please note the prongs on the flat back buckle(nickle rondel) are they any good?????thanks..chadComment
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by the way, if you were wondering...these are being offered for $450 a piece or a little less than $900 for the pair...I dont know what the going rate is on these can anyone let me know if they have recently seen any for sale , or bought on recently so I can check current market value..thanks..chadComment
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Hello there,
It just so happens that I saw the nickel roundel buckle you show for sale on a certain web site dealing solely in reproductions. I will have to get back to you as to which site it was. I remember thinking it was a pity that such a nice SA version had to be a fake. The copy had the exact same reverse with cut prongs, etc. That type of prongs invariably indicates a modern made buckle.
As for the other brass on brass version, it looks real enough to me but I would balk at such a price. Others may have more definitive answers.
The SA/SS "transition" buckle is also open to debate. As you know, SA buckles were produced with very many variations of eagle, swastika and metal. I suspect that the straight-wing version (of which there are a few variations!) is one such variant - an uncommon one, though.
Regards,
Kevin
PS- here is the site. http://www.egframes.co.uk/german16.htm
Originally posted by Chad WilliamsLast edited by Kevin Rea; 08-14-2004, 12:29 AM.Comment
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Hello Chad
An interesting pair of SA buckles.
I do not think that B186 is a fake. Instead, I would suggest that this is a pure fantasy piece and actually, never existed pre 1945. As Kevin quite rightly confirms, a buckle openly for sale on at least two reproduction related sites. I have seen this buckle as nickle on brass and also, fully nickle and I have never been comfortable with the ones handled at fairs. I must emphasise however Chad that this is only a personel point of view.
B187 however is a different animal. A super rare SA and the one you have shown is a good example. Without wishing to start the weekend with gloom and doom, no evidence whatsoever to suggest that this design was SS associated, although of course the horizontal wing effect does have an obvious in simpatico feel.
Rather like the Gau Essen, I think that it is perhaps in dealers interests to promote the possible SS association, although a quite natural thing to do and who cares.
A great SA and again rare, although the price is very high. The point to consider is how often do you see these for sale - hardly ever. If you want it then buy it, as I can guarantee that if you do not, somebody else will and that is based on bitter experience.
Regards,
DavidComment
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Hi All,
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Don’t shoot me but I think both buckles are fakes! Until a year ago I would have had some reserve on them but since I also discovered the dealers who sell them as fake. Of course, I am not “god” the almighty and I can be wrong. I slight doubt might subsist on the first one (B187) but I don’t like the prongs / sleeve at all! Looks like they are 45% and sharp cut ??
Below a picture (sorry for the bad quality, my good camera is in repair, got water in it in Alaska last week!!) of some of the “early” type SA buckles in my collection.
One can see the obvious differences with the above two presented buckles.
Yes, yes, David, Karl,…. I know the next question…. What the hell is the “Silver” top buckle for???? NSKK???
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MarcComment
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B187 brass on brass sure does look the same to me from the photos to be very much the same as the third one down on the photo you have provided Marc...is it too clean or something..please give me a little more insight as to why you dont like it...the prongs look good to me and the base buckle itself is identical to yours and the ones in angolias book...I am just tryin gto learn something here and I havent gotten to the bottom of WHY? I understand the doubt of B186 , because of the prongs and that is why I listed the buckles to get as many opinions as possible....so if you could give me some more insight as to WHY???? thank you very much ...chadComment
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Chad,
This is an interesting discussion. I have to say that I believe he 187 buckle to be a good one also. I agree that both yours and the one Marc pictured are the same construction. Maybe I missed something on Marc's buckle. As far as the other buckle, it is bad. However I don't buy into the fact that this is a fantasy buckle. There are autentic one's out there as Marc pointed out. There are also some very good copies being offered as original. As far as price is concerned, if they were both original the price being asked would be high in my opinion but on the other hand these are rare buckles and don't come on the market very often. It really comes down to how badly you want a buckle and are you going to regret not buying it even if it appears over priced. I just purchased a 2nd pattern Reichbahn EM buckle in gold for a very high-taking in the extra cost on the Euro conversion- price. I missed two of these in the last 15 years and would have paid pretty much whatever the price as this is a very rare and beautiful buckle. The same can be said for these SA buckles(original ones of course. Finally, I would like Marc to weigh in on this again. I trust his opinion and he certainly has more hands on experience with these buckles. Possibly he does not want to give away to much info in his assessment of the 187 piece. Marc?
BillComment
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I will always keep an open mind towards fake buckles and unfortunately, simply nothing surprises me anymore, although I am sure that buckle 187 is original. Correct me if I am wrong, however the dished back fake is not a common feature (what other fakes have a dished back ?). In addition, I think we sometimes affect a quite neurotic stance towards "clipped" claws. I have numerous and original SA/NSKK (did i say NSKK ?) buckles with quite sharp and angled tip claws and perhaps, we forget the quite distinct and opposing OLT type claws, which really are the problem.
Basically, I think that buckle 187 looks sound and again, a rare item.
I see buckle 186 so many times at fairs and now perhaps, we are now becoming somewhat blase. This is I think a distinct, corrupt and fantasy design, quite unlike the original Marc holds. They may appear essentially the same, although when seen shoulder to shoulder, may I suggest "chalk and cheese".
Again and with all due respect, 187 as a super and rare buckle, although 187, as a bogus and fantasy piece.
Regards,
DavidLast edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:44 AM.Comment
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Hello all,
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First let me apologise for my jump to conclusion in my previous post reply and the posible patronising aspect of it.
I made a major mistake in confusing the back of both buckles. I logically took the let back for the first buckle and the right back for the second buckle.
We all agree that the second buckle (B186) is a post war fake; not exactly a fantasy piece but a real fake as it has been copied from an existing design (with some artistic liberties…)
I post hereby the picture of one of these fake buckles that has been “upgraded” with a phantasy RZM marking. This example is already old, probably from the 70’s. I also post the picture of the “real” buckle inset for comparison.
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As for the first buckle, (B187) notice that I said that I still had a slight doubt on it, this was due to the confusion of the back’s .All of you will agree that the back on the left is obviously fake (modern prong sleeve and what looks like 45% prongs). I still would like to know what material the prong bar is made of on this particular buckle… Is there any possibility to have that detail??? Close up picture of the top of the prong bar?? Ye, yes, this is my secret trick on these buckles…
Marc
PS, strange, no one has mentioned the “NSKK” buckle on the top of my pictures above….
Fake backComment
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fake furor
Hello all,
The design of the "fake" roundel actually looks better to me than the "original." More balanced and regal, somehow. Pity it is a copy/wretched fantasy.
Cheers,
KevinComment
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