LW Officer's Buckle with RZM Marking

[John T]

RZM M4/4/24/1 LW Officer Buckle ...I always thought the buckle by this maker an interesting anomaly -

[John T]

reverse

[John T]

mark detail ...

[klr]

A very strange buckle. A luftwaffe buckle shouldn't be RZM marked. What is the extra 4 at the end of the markings? I haven't seen construction like this before. If I saw this at a show I would pass on it. Interested to see what others have to say.

[buckle1]

John,

I agree w/Kirby. Not the standard Luft. buckle and never with an RZM code. Looks like the back of a Political leader buckle but the front is completely different. The M4/24 is correct for a PL buckle but I have never seen another # after that. Whatever it is is is not a genuine Luft. officers buckle. Another one to go in the repro section.

Bill

[John T]

HI Bill and Kirby--

I have seen another number after the M4/24 as shown above on other buckles but I can not locate the pictures at this time when needed naturally.

I can assure you I have no doubts about the authenticity of this piece. We have Army buckles with RZM codes, such as the Heer M4/44 examples and there is nothing fake about this buckle with regards to material or construction (typical style for Linden) save for the fact that Linden marked it with an RZM code and I respect that there is doubt about it because of that. There was something even done in the construction that fakers tend to leave out. Based on how I obtained this example and the last one that I have owned there can be no absolutely doubt for me but I repect everybody's opinion.


John

[aechols83]

Hello Gentlemen,

John, I do not collect Luftwaffe and I also defer to Bill and Kirby as the more experienced buckle collectors. That being said, I am really not comfortable with this buckle. The RZM M4/24 marking (minus the very odd extra number) looks correct for a Political Leader's buckle however this is, of course, not fashioned to be a political leader's buckle. I would be curious if you can find the images you recall of the other buckles marked with this extra number.

I know of the authentic RZM M4/44 marked Heer buckle by Paul Cramer... Perhaps I will be corrected here, but I do not know of any other Wehrmacht buckles that are RZM marked (as we know...supposed to be reserved only for "political stuff.")

From the sales description on your website and my own quick reference, I see this is not listed in any of the major buckle books. I know some very rare buckles and variants are not or cannot always be featured, however in the other direction, known rare pieces are often shown exactly because they are so rare. You also mention Friedrich Linden as the maker of the SA high leader's buckle. It would be interesting to compare images if possible.

Just my thoughts and I will be interested in what anyone else has to say here. I would personally be very curious to know the thoughts of members Regiment739 and Guido L. as I think they would find this buckle interesting.

Best to all,
Adam

[KC1]

JT-

As most collectors, we all prescribe to a certain axiom of guidelines that allow us to make informed decisions. As a general rule of thumb and what Karl and Bill have alluded to, the buckle does not conform to the norm and hence would entertain doubt to authenticity.

Now the buckle could be absolutely original throughout but perhaps reconfigured post-war. I could also entertain it being done era but therein lies the confusion. As it does not conform to the norm and to the possibility of post-war re-assembly, one is apt to pass on the purchase of said buckle.

I respect your thoroughness in your investigation of the buckle and perhaps someone else on the forum might have a buckle similar in construction to yours.

Perhaps Gene has one.

Just my $.02

[planet]

Hello,
just wanted to inform You, that an NSFK leaders buckle of the same pattern with RZM M4/24/4 marking but of course with the NSFK-symbol was offered at the last Hermann Historica auction for a minimum bid of 2.500 €. It did not sell.
An RZM-marking would possibly fit to a NSFK buckle. But I still have my doubts... Two pieces that show up in a short time which only differ in the riveted eagles...
Regards, Thomas

[josh105]

I am very interested in this topic since seeing the LW construction for the first time. My understanding is that no major book has shed light on this situation, and the forum can't really agree upon much either, which makes it very exciting for me!!

Some question I have for people that hold the buckle in hand:

1) Size?
2) How is the LW front attach/forged to the PL back? Or is it all one construction?
3) Does the front construction match with another LW officer buckle maker? If so do we know if they, and Linden ever worked in close proximity to have shared materials or outsourced work?

I have attached an image that will show a comparison of the two fonts used by Linden that I have labelled T1 and T2. I believe it is the T1 font that is seen on this 'combo' buckle and it is exact.

A theory of mine is that I know Friedrich Linden, Lüdenscheid was a popular Political Leaders buckle maker but did he as Cramer mark his military buckles with RZM? Perhaps outsourced in a time of demand to Linden so he just started slapping LW fronts on PL backs? Why I was asking if the firms were in close proximity. If it IS an original pre-45' which I am hoping to discover it is, then It can be said it was liking in the 'confusion' years when RZM was first introduced and regulations were not up to par or understood. I believe the "/1" at the end was added after to as a way for Linden to mark that yes, this was different then his political buckles. The font of the "/1" which I can see seems different.

Anyways here is the image for you to view: It shows T1 the LW 'combo' and T2 - on the side is a bunch of other examples of T1s and T2s. All images were taken from google which voids all copy rights on them.

[John T]

HI Josh-

That is a great study!

You have found the "RZM M4/24/1" match on a political buckle that matches the font on the LW buckle. I know there will be those who will doubt these buckles and I respect their opinions but I have always believed in them.

John

[Schlange]

A similar way of connecting two parts of the belt buckle can be seen on this parade police buckles Kingdom of Yugoslavia parade police belt set. (Produced in pre-WW2 Germany)

Schlange

http://www.mojalbum.com/schlange88/albumi