Hj buckles Early NSDAP buckle

[reif40]

Just purchased a fine HJ belt with buckle. I believe the buckle to be nickle? Anyway can someone identify the maker? The buckle is marked A&s with a large A isolated by itself it has the usual RZM mark with the number 17 beneath it. It also has ges.gesch stamped on it. The belt is marked Croupon Nr.6 Can someone shed some light on these marks. I also have an unmarked NSDAP buckel, nothing unusual except it is much smaller than the typical buckel of this type. Thanking in advance. reif40

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello,

Your buckle is in Nickel Silver and was made by the firm Assmann & Söhne (A&S) between 1933 and 1935. The RZM 17 is conform to Assmann contract number for this early period, number later changed to RZM M4/39.
Ges.Gesch. indicates that the buckle design is copyrighted, marking fairly common with any early Third Reich German buckle.

Croupon marking on the belt is same as "Kernstück" and indicates a high grade leather. It indicates also that the belt was made after september 1934.

[reif40]

Thanks Jean for your help regarding the HJ piece. Can you tell me about the NSDAP buckle as well? Like I stated in the post it is of a vey small size. Made for children?

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

The second buckle you are talking about is for NSDAP Youth (NSDAP Jugend). Worn as early as 1920, and since there was no strict regulation yet, these 35x50mm buckles are considered as non-regulation. With the creation of the Jugenbund der NSDAP in 1922, and since it was under SA control, these buckles are reflecting more the SA than the HJ. It was worn with a smaller black leather belt and none is known to be marked. This buckle was worn until the HJ buckles were available and the Youth status changed, so from 1920 to 1934.
(Informations found in J. Angolia book: "Belt Buckles and Brocades of the 3rd Reich)

[Kurt Doench]

Just to enhance what Jean-Pierre said on the small SA-buckle, according to HJ dress regulations as published in the HJ-Verordnungsblatt for 1933 (1st year of that publication's existence) the regulation belt buckle for the HJ was the "SA-Koppelschloss". I have always taken this to mean the small 35mm version, but there is no explicit reference to this in the regulations, which are from autumn of 1933.

Seperate dress regulations for the HJ were published in book form in 1934, which show the familiar nickle (actually, Neusilber) HJ buckle and the DJ buckle (brass coated in Neusilber except for the rune).

Then again, in 1933 there was published a booklet (not by an official NSDAP source, its authors were Leberecht/Vogler) on NSDAP uniforms, which shows the HJ and DJ patterns.

From all this we can infer that the samll SA buckle was the regulation Hitler Youth buckle in 1933, the distinctive buckles having been introduced in 1934. The design process for these went underway in 1933, however.

As to a regulation Hitler Youth buckle before 1933, we can only guess. There is a lot of contmporary photographic evidence of all sorts of buckles having been worn by Hitler Youth members during the "Kampfzeit", i.e. prior to the Nazi's taking power.

If anyone has such early (pre-1933) regulations, would he please share in the interest of everybody?

Karl

[Marc verstraete]

Excellent response "collégiale" from JP and Karl,
Following picture shows two Assmann markings on HJ buckles and the CROUPON marking on a PL belt.
Marc

[Marc verstraete]

Croupon Marking

[Frentebro]

Schlepp, i believe you meant the DJ is brass-plated EXCEPT for the rune, which is nickled...i have an example excavated at Danzig, which is steel, selectively plated. Marked RZM KH 24.

I have also from Danzig, an interesting
early 2-piece HJ marked R.THIEL/DANZIG within a cartouche. The inset, of thin nickle stock, is attached with two solder points. The rest is nickle-plated steel.

Dave

[reif40]

Thanks Gents. I beleive I have tapped into a wealth of knowledge!

[Kurt Doench]

Hi Frentebro: No, I did mean brass nickle-plated, except for the rune, which was left plain brass. This is the type most often seen, and the regulations are quite unequivocal and explicit on this point. There is a puzzling variant, being nickle, with the body covered in black paint, and the rune left nickle. These come in a number of variants, the one I have is stamped and conforms totally to the regulation item, except forthe colours, and is unmarked. Others have the rune applied with two prongs, some have RZM markings.
I've never been able to find anything in regulations or manufacturer's catalogues on this one. Anybody got any ideas?

The buckles you describe sound most interesting, I have never seen any like that. Could you post pictures (or send them to Jean-Pierre for posting, who I think would be happy to oblige)?

Greetings,
Karl

[Frentebro]

Guten Morgen, Karl. I have pics i can fwd to JP for posting here. They are not the best pics but i plead innocent as they were taken by a non-pro other than myself.:-> I don't have the equipment so i was glad to get even these shots so i could offer them for sale (sale is pending).

Dave

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

1

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

2

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

3

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

4