Police Officer brocade

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

on the estand

[Dave C.]

Sort of an interesting thread but it would certainly be a lot more productive if the good and bad points (at least a few) were clearly detailed so that we could all learn. I'll say that brocades have never been a strong interest of mine, although I do like polizei items, so I'm always interested in expanding knowledge whenever possible. Not sure what's the holdback but I'll start with a few comments to see if this can get the ball rolling:

1. Mentioned lack of vertical and horizontal stitching that is typical to attached brocade and found within the body or in the silver (horizontally speaking). From the pointed end, it would appear the stitching goes off into the twisted cord o the border?
2. The extended tongue length seems irregular, although not all that excessive in the photo in post #2
3. The "wavy" appearance of attachment of the brocade on green

Could some or all of the above possibly be attributed to variation, poor storage, laundered, and or…?
What is the level of quality of reproduced brocade?

Personally, I've never viewed the 1st pattern of police brocade as object of great quality or perfection but like I mentioned above they are not a strong interest of mine so I have not studied the unknown number of makers that produced, which is likely far more than the later the makers of 2nd pattern that were subject to RZM. Also, I don't find that they command a high level of interest or value and generally are overlooked but this has changed a little in recent years.

So what about the buckle, I've only seen this maker on one or possible two buckles in the past, does someone have some further examples to add?

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Sort of an interesting thread but it would certainly be a lot more productive if the good and bad points (at least a few) were clearly detailed

I usually do not spend time anymore for this issue. There is by now many posts dealing with original/fakes subjects and I prefer to let readers interested in whatever subject to find more by themselves since it is the best way to learn. But at least this was my reply to a message sent to me by a friend:
" I am not speaking about the buckle but just about the belt. I do not know your belt, and I believe your been good since you were certainly able to handle it before it entered in your collection. For an original brocade there would be only one way to display that kind of crinkle: been in the washer several times until stiffness is totally gone. Even if left for years in a damp area it will not display as such. Everything is crinkle: the belt body and many (I should say too many) areas on the bullion borders (this been due to stitching not been properly on the edges). This is a common feature for nice hand-sewn repros made in Pakistan in the 90's. "

Since I know that some will point this, I do not mean this one originated in Pakistan. Just that it was already a sign in the 90's. Since then, some things improved: bullion is now dull rather than shiny, does no longer glows under UV, etc...
Price point is also not a valid point: anything more than $10 is valuable to reproduce and at $100 I can guarantee they go to high extend! $1 is maybe peanuts in North America but North America is far from the rest of the world. Who has never seen HJ insignias repros when original worth less than $20?
Enough from my side for that belt. I gave my opinion (and stand by it) since Pat is someone I personally know from the time I was living in Montreal but I do not have a lot of free time anymore. So please forgive me for further comments on that one.
To finish, regarding the buckle (there was no comment from myself on the buckle - and there is still none) here is the photo I saved a while back about one I believe to be original (posted in another forum)

[Ric Ferrari]

Sort of an interesting thread but it would certainly be a lot more productive if the good and bad points (at least a few) were clearly detailed so that we could all learn. I'll say that brocades have never been a strong interest of mine, although I do like polizei items, so I'm always interested in expanding knowledge whenever possible. Not sure what's the holdback but I'll start with a few comments to see if this can get the ball rolling:

1. Mentioned lack of vertical and horizontal stitching that is typical to attached brocade and found within the body or in the silver (horizontally speaking). From the pointed end, it would appear the stitching goes off into the twisted cord o the border?
2. The extended tongue length seems irregular, although not all that excessive in the photo in post #2
3. The "wavy" appearance of attachment of the brocade on green

Could some or all of the above possibly be attributed to variation, poor storage, laundered, and or…?
What is the level of quality of reproduced brocade?

Personally, I've never viewed the 1st pattern of police brocade as object of great quality or perfection but like I mentioned above they are not a strong interest of mine so I have not studied the unknown number of makers that produced, which is likely far more than the later the makers of 2nd pattern that were subject to RZM. Also, I don't find that they command a high level of interest or value and generally are overlooked but this has changed a little in recent years.

So what about the buckle, I've only seen this maker on one or possible two buckles in the past, does someone have some further examples to add?

Well, at first sight those obvious points did lead me to believe in the result of a poorly period manufactured item and well worn.
But I've to admit by the pics the obvious sign of a well worn brocade is missing, so something else could provide such features.
I'm not ready to definitively discharge the item by such pics alone, but keeping in collection a questionable item is not my suggestion for sure.

Best

Ric

P.S. I've been requested (by email) for an opinion by Patrice and it was positive about the set, just to make it clear.

[patrice]

It is difficult to tell from the pics alone but I can assure that the green backing has much wear to it and so is the leather.
The reason why it looks "so new", is simply because I have enhanced the colors through photoshop.

Will try and take some better pics under natural lights and without enhancing the color through photoshop.


No need anyway doing this since it is going back to England.

[patrice]

Just a thought,

I don't know why these brocades are so rare if they are being so easily reproduced ? I would think that they would at least be more common but no, thay are still super rare.

[JR.]

Enhancing photos................ 10 denominations!

[klr]

I wouldn't call these super rare or rare. I would rank brocades something like this.
Super rare: Teno, SA High leader
Rare: Political leaders, Diplomatic, Bahnschutz, Customs, RLB,
Hard to find: HJ Leaders, SS black or green backed, 2nd pattern Police
A step above common: RAD, first pattern Police, DLV
Common: Army, Kreigsmarine, Luftwaffe, Forestry

[KC1]

Patrice,

As a brocade collector and based solely on the photos supplied, the arguments by JP against the brocade itself are valid yet not conclusive as Ric has stated. As a point of reference I do not have any brocades that are in the condition (heavy weaving) as the one posted and I think you can find a much better example.

Kirby has rightful sized the commonality of this type brocade. Not rare and not difficult to find.

[patrice]

Thank you guys, I will keep searching then for a nice Police brocade to go along with my buckle.

[Dave C.]

Thanks guys for the more detailed comments.

On another note, I performed a search here for "police brocade" and various other combinations and the named searched resulted in better than a page of results that I looked through w/o any success of finding a post or thread that addressed the good and bad of this 1st pattern pol. brocade...is there such a detailed thread? If so, I would really like to see & read it. It would appear that the police brocade discussions are dominated by the 2nd SS pattern. Thanks.