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**Adrian Stevenson** · 04-23-2002, 05:00 PM

RZM Code?

Hi Stijn, are you certain that the code is RZM M1/ ? As the RZM code for belt buckles is M4/.
If it is M1/, then maybe the buckle is dubious?
There is a very useful list of RZM numbers on Bernie Brule's SS Officer research website. Here is a link:
http://members.rogers.com/ssocr/index_800.html
Hope this is of some help?
Cheers, Ade.

**Stijn David** · 04-23-2002, 11:50 PM

thanks

Hello,

Thanks for the very useful information Adrian, i have not seen the buckle myself, it is a friend who asked me => i wil ask if he can get some pictures of this buckle and the makers mark so we can be sure .

Thanks again and greetings,

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-25-2002, 03:43 PM

Rzm M1/131 on buckle

Hello Cholm,
Isn't the belt buckle a SS belt buckle ? And if yes, isn't the marking "GZM" M1/131 instead of "RZM" M1/131 ?
Thanks for the follow up

**Stijn David** · 04-26-2002, 12:56 AM

rzm code

Hello,

I have received pictures from the buckle yesterday and i wil post them during this day for further opinion , yes it is a SS buckle , be patient and i await your reply's, i have absolutely no knowledge of this type of stuff and its always nice to learn something.

Greetings,

**Stijn David** · 04-26-2002, 12:58 AM

picture 1

Picture 1 , a close up from the maker mark :

**Stijn David** · 04-26-2002, 01:01 AM

picture 2 , the front

picture 2 , here is a overvieuw of the front of this Buckle

**Stijn David** · 04-26-2002, 01:04 AM

picture 3 , back side

Hello, here is the last picture, the reverse of the belt buckle , according to my friend it was ground dug , so whats the opinions a original ground dug piece or a fake so called ground dug piece ? ( that was actually put in the ground to let it have that tarnisched look, etc .... ) .

Any opinions are greatefully appreciated ,

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-26-2002, 07:08 AM

Gzm M1/131

Hello Cholm,

Yes, indeed we are talking about the same buckle. I will ask you one favor: please ask your friend when he obtained this buckle, and from where - no told story but just facts -.
This buckle is the third one originating from Europe I see in the last year, and since a week a similar thread is up and running in my own forum as well as in GDC, I will post it as well unchanged from its original version.

**Stijn David** · 04-26-2002, 07:16 AM

thanks for the info sofar

Hello Jean Pierre,

Thanks for the info so far, i wil ask him today and see what he can answer .

Greetings,

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-26-2002, 07:34 AM

My Original Post

Hello,

One good thing about this hobby is that nobody knows everything - myself included -
Here is a SS Buckle I strongly believe been a fake as everything on it, including it's marking, tells me it is a fake. But problem is, it looks like it has been made a long time ago and its quality is something we were not used to before fakes from East Europe. This buckle has already been seen by some notorious collectors and authors, and the feedback remains the same: fake buckle but no EVIDENCE one way or another which is something I can't accept. If a buckle is an original or a fake, we can be able
to find records of such and so positively call it original or fake. For now, unfortunately, this buckle is still a "highly probable fake".

For myself here is what I found wrong:

- Both wings are not the same - one is obviously more pointed than the other
- Catch is positioned on the rope, not centered behind the motto
- Catch not even parallel to buckle border - If someone wears this buckle, the buckle will not be aligned with the belt
- Eagle looks like an afraid chicken, which is similar to English fakes in the 70's
- Swastika really too small
- Lack of details on the back. Even looks like there is no pebbling at all
- Design positioned very low - the rope is right by the edge of the buckle
- The design is not horizontal - notice distance between buckle edge to top of right wing and compare with left wing
- If it was an original marking we would have heard about it one way or the other, especially since the internet. Worldwide information is way more easier now. I received reply from one of the most reliable researcher in this field in former USSR and his answer was the same: no report whatsoever of anything been found with any GZM marking.
- There is no entry or record for any "R"zm M1/131. You will tell me that GZM is not RZM but still....

Let's say than any of the above features taken alone will not generate in my mind a concern. Which creates the concern is the sum of so many on just one single buckle !! But still, I will be happier to find confirmation it is a fake since I can't prove it right now even if plus it goes, more problems I find with this buckle.

So, I am asking the group if there is someone able to bring such
evidence, even if your grand daddy brought it from Germany and so you can positively say it is ORIGINAL or if you are the manufacturer of it and so attest to its forgery.

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-26-2002, 07:42 AM

Photos of one of the above buckle

Located at:
http://pages.infinit.net/jpredeu/page/Gzm-f.jpg
http://pages.infinit.net/jpredeu/page/Gzm-r.jpg
http://pages.infinit.net/jpredeu/page/Gzm-r2.jpg

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-28-2002, 09:31 PM

update

hello Cholm,

Any new input from your friend regarding where and when he truely purchased this buckle ?

TIA

**Stijn David** · 04-29-2002, 01:04 AM

RZM SS Buckle

Hello Jean Pierre,

Nope sorry until now no exact response => i can however tel you my friend lives in Germany ( near Hamburg ) and apparently he is been offered this buckle by another person +> see the piece of the email i received regarding this.

" dieses Koppelschloß wurde gefunden aber ich weiß nicht wo von eine der sucht , Ich werde fragen wo diese lag ????

aber ist ein komischer Hersteller sehr markant ????? "

Translated this is : this Buckle was found but i do not know where these persons are searching , i wil ask where it was found , etc ............

So until now this does not bring us much further then the fact that it is been offered in Germany +> keep you eyes open , im sure these wil soon be listed with some dealers .

Greetings,

ps : i report back as soon as i know something more.

**Jean Pierre Redeuilh** · 04-30-2002, 02:46 PM

Steel Or Nickel Silver

Cholm,

I forgot to ask you one question for your friend. Is his magnetic (steel) or not ?

TIA

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