SS leather belt

[Peter Wiking]

What do you think about this SS leather belt ?
Leather is thick and of good quality. Width is 44 mm.
I find the thread in the stitching a bit thin. Could this be a repro ?

http://home.broadpark.no/~pwikvi/images/ss_belt_01.jpg
http://home.broadpark.no/~pwikvi/images/ss_belt_02.jpg
http://home.broadpark.no/~pwikvi/images/ss_belt_03.jpg

Thanks.
Peter Wiking

[Stossgruppe3]

I am not the worlds expert on belts, but in my opinion this could be a belt made for re-enactment, or an original belt with the stamping added at a much later date. I dont like it because in my opinion this belt is there to fool because of the so-called SS stamping which commands more of a higher price. David

[Peter Wiking]

If not original, whats wrong with it ? Need to know why its wrong.

Thanks.
Peter Wiking

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

If not original, whats wrong with it ? Need to know why its wrong.

Thanks.
Peter Wiking

I will not tell it is not original, but I will not buy it neither. It is already very hard (not impossible - very hard) to find original SS leathers (including belts) marked with "RZM" xx/43 SS where xx is the maker and 43 of course the date of manufacture, but this marking is even with the earlier VA stamp, marking which is considered by many advanced collectors as a pre-RZM marking and having seen his very latest days by 1940.
During the 1992 MAX show a dealer from Austria brought a large quantity of those exact belts (exact same condition, exact same keeper, exact same marking) claiming they were find in a cache recently (for 1992 of course). Price: $50 each. Cheaper if more than three at a time. Problem, at least 75% of items on his table were nice quality/latest quality reproductions. No more of those belts did surface after this period I was able to notice (maybe they did but I did not pay attention) until this year when your is the third I see in a year.
You got facts, I let you handle the rest.

[Peter Wiking]

Jean.
With other words, that type of stamp was only used early in the war ? Interesting info you have there on that dealer from Austria.
I dont think its hard to find SS marked leather. I have found several Y-straps and belt loops with SS markings from well known and good dealers.

Thanks.
Peter Wiking

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Jean.
With other words, that type of stamp was only used early in the war?

If we are talking about stamping in the form "VA" xx/yy SS where xx is the maker's number and yy the year of manufacture, yes. "I" would personnaly even purchase nothing with yy older than 39, but this is my choice.

I dont think its hard to find SS marked leather.

I do not think neither. As I wrote in my previous reply, only the marked RZM xx/43 (for the specific year of manufacture of 1943) are hard to find - with personnaly even just only one maker's code I fully trust. If we are talking about leather goods manufactured from 1934 to 1942 for the SS and bearing, depending of date of manufacture, VA xx/yy SS or more often RZM xx/yy SS markings those are of course not so rare depending of the leather good itself. At least such SS EM belts are not at all without been very common.
Hope it clears out my earlier message.

[R_Hessian]

value

Hello,
What is the value of one of these belts w/buckle (buckle was green but much of its paint has been worn off). The belt is marked on the inside for the SS and so is the buckle.
Thank you!
Robert

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Robert,
First we need to know several things. Since you said the buckle is SS marked you are not talking about a RODO SS Buckle which is the one found only green painted (but does not bear any RZM/SS contract number). The second variant commonly found factory green painted is the Assmann's marked RZM 155/43 SS. The last variant still found factory green painted is again the Assmann's marked RZM 155/40 SS. Depending of the buckle, price will be different. Other SS Buckles could be also painted green, but field painted green (the back remains usually silver) and so do not have the same resale value as have the factory painted ones. So, which SS Buckle is it?

Second, what is the SS marking on the belt itself? Is it a SS unit marking (which means it was a belt "used" by the SS) or is it a RZM/SS contract number (which means the belt was "made for" the SS. The value is not the same.

Third, is the belt keeper green as well (and with green shade matching what remains on the SS buckle)?

Please let us know since value will differ depending of the answers.

[R_Hessian]

Buckle/belt

Jean,
Thank you for your very detailed response, here are the answers your questions;
1. Buckle marked; rzm mark, 822/38 SS in circle
2. Belt marked; ss in circle, 48/37, rzm mark (these marks near belt hook)
WA SS/ 1937 - ( these marks are near the tab marked
"croupon")
The date can be made out but the WA SS/
are tough to see VERY!

3. Belt hook is shiny and marked "olc in a diamond".
Thank you!!!
Robert

Robert,
First we need to know several things. Since you said the buckle is SS marked you are not talking about a RODO SS Buckle which is the one found only green painted (but does not bear any RZM/SS contract number). The second variant commonly found factory green painted is the Assmann's marked RZM 155/43 SS. The last variant still found factory green painted is again the Assmann's marked RZM 155/40 SS. Depending of the buckle, price will be different. Other SS Buckles could be also painted green, but field painted green (the back remains usually silver) and so do not have the same resale value as have the factory painted ones. So, which SS Buckle is it?

Second, what is the SS marking on the belt itself? Is it a SS unit marking (which means it was a belt "used" by the SS) or is it a RZM/SS contract number (which means the belt was "made for" the SS. The value is not the same.

Third, is the belt keeper green as well (and with green shade matching what remains on the SS buckle)?

Please let us know since value will differ depending of the answers.

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Jean,
Thank you for your very detailed response, here are the answers your questions;
1. Buckle marked; rzm mark, 822/38 SS in circle
2. Belt marked; ss in circle, 48/37, rzm mark (these marks near belt hook)
WA SS/ 1937 - ( these marks are near the tab marked
"croupon")
The date can be made out but the WA SS/
are tough to see VERY!

3. Belt hook is shiny and marked "olc in a diamond".
Thank you!!!
Robert

Thanks for the update!
I am assuming the buckle is field painted green - or repainted green (of course period repainted) - since such aluminum SS buckles made by C.T.Dicke (822/38's) are often seen that way. This is the reason why usually the green paint is mostly gone (poor adhesion of the paint to the aluminum) rather than wear abuse.
The leather belt is matching the buckle time frame with, I am assuming an aluminum keeper (even if maker 48 already used steel keepers for his SS belts production as soon as 1936 - but they are usually unmarked). But since we are in the aluminum period, an aluminum keeper is more likely with an expected raw silver color since I believe the buckle was field repainted green.
Leather maker 48 (I don't know who he was yet) is one of the largest maker of SS belts from, at least, 1934 to 1940. For his SS belts, on all the example I saw, he always used high grade leather (and so marked "CROUPON"). So, your belt is exactly what expected. I don't know the meaning of the additionnal marking (WA SS/1937) but I have a similar (not exactly the same as you will see) on one of my own set. On "mine" I thought first it could had been added later (post war) but I still do not see the reason even if I cannot confirm the accuracy of it, or its meaning. Maybe someone else could tell us what it means ...
Anyway, everything is right with your set and it does not leave much room for lack of belief. Depending of the overall condition I will value it around $500/600. But it is "my" own valuation, based on what "I" am used to find, and so opinion can of course differ.

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

822/38 buckle green repainted on one of my sets

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

822/38 buckle green repainted on one of my sets - Back -

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Unknown marking on one of my sets

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Typical marking for maker 48 (photo taken by MajorPLM)

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

"CROUPON" marking from maker 48 (Photo MajorPLM)