Imperial Buckle - can anybody identify it ?

[David North]

This interesting buckle is being posted on behalf of a chap from the Imperial Forum and I wonder, can anybody identify it ?

Here is the link:-

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=355872

Regards,

David

[David North]

2

[helmutderpa]

A friend of mine proposed me a tabbed buckle like that some time ago and I asked Bill Xanten.

Here is what he kindly answered me one year ago :

"Simon,

Here is what I can tell you about this buckle. It is "Prussian State Police stationed on the Bavarian border. Hence the Bavarian Shield and the Prussian "Gott Mit Uns" wording. It was used according to my sources from approx. 1860 until 1930. It's pretty rare. In fact I owned one a few years ago and sold it because I did not think it was original. They also come in nickel as well as brass. Very unusual to find them tabbed like yours is. If you can get I would go for it. A tough buckle to find.

Regards,

Bill "

I purchased some buckle from Bill last year. He really is a knowledgeable and nice guy. A pleasure to deal with. Thanks to him

Simon

[David North]

Simon

Many thanks.

Extremely informative and of course, coming from a first class source.

Regards,

David

[Fred Borgmann]

Thanks David and Helmut! That is a really wild story. If I had not heard it from you guys I would have never believed it. Any ideas as to how much it could be worth? Just a ball park figure so that my friend doesn't end up giving it to his grand kids to play soldier with. Fred

[Kurt Doench]

Perhaps Bill couls share his sources on this buckle? Let me hasten to add that I don't have anything to prove this identification wrong, but neither have I ever seen any material on such a buckle before, either.

Still, a special buckle for Prussian police on the border with Bavaria seems unlikely, as Prussia did not share a long stretch of border with Bavaria, just small stretches along the province of the Rhine and the province of Hessen-Nassau (only acquired in 1866), so why no special buckles for police operating on other borders? Even stranger, why would Prussian police wear the Bavarian state arms? Why would they continue wearing the monarchical arms up unto 1930?

My best guess would be either a fantasy design attached to a possibly original buckle box or some sort of private association etc.

Best regards,
Karl

[NortonI]

I apologize for my stupid question - but how is the shield fixed to the buckle ?

Marc showed his three buckles of this type long ago, two of them with the shield fixed like this.

Here is the thread :

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=Bavarian

[helmutderpa]

Karl,

Even if the real purpose of these buckles is not known for sure yet, I am sure that these are not fantasy pieces.

The one that I was proposed is absolutely unquestionnable, even not talking about the source it is coming.

The owner is a friend and has not sold it yet. He asked me not to post pictures of this buckle on the net until it is sold or mine. We could'nt find a price agreement till now and nobody bought it at the price requested!
This buckle is really desireable but as I am collecting mostly military buckles, I am not willing to pay top prices for non military buckles.

Simon

[buckle1]

To answer some questions asked about this buckle. 1. The face plate is sweated on with solder. Not a common practice but not that rare either. As to where I obtained the info? I talked to an individual (friend) in the US who collects only Bavarian buckles and belts. He was adament about the info he gave me and in fact I spoke to him again this week to confirm our earlier conversation. He still owns two of these buckles -one w/a nickel body. The other came from Tom Reid ,according to my friend,who also substantiated the ID of this buckle. I hope this helps and I often regret disposing of my buckle before I verified it's authenticity.

Bill

[NortonI]

Thank you for the info on the soldering, Bill !

I still wonder why the bavarian shield has a prussian logo

Cheers
Norton

[jcmkeel]

I recently acquired exact same buckle

I purchased the same buckle last week at the estate sale of an American Veteran that acquired it while serving in Europe during WWII. I have spent the week consulting experts and have found no absolute answer as to the buckle's origin. Mine also has the nickel Roudel attached to a brass buckle. The Bayern Coat of Arms in connection with the Prussian motto is what intrigued me most.

It seems this buckle is relatively rare. Does anybody have a current market value estimate or would there be a possible buyer among the gentlemen found here?

Jason McKeel