Opinions on this HJ Buckle

[FLiPSiDE]

Hi,

I just got this HJ Members Buckle marked RZM M4/46 today in a group of items and I'd like to get some opinions. Your assistance is very much appreciated.

[KC1]

A nice original Wilhelm Schroder & Cie HJ buckle.

[juoneen]

Ive got a buckle marked GZM M/4 112 youth i got over 30 years ago. Ill bet you cant tell me what that number is? (I know by the way )Lets See who can guess that maker.Bet maybe one guy from germany .

[Chad Williams]

can you please post pics of the GZM buckle..front and back..thank you
Chad

[schorschi]

Ive got a buckle marked GZM M/4 112 youth i got over 30 years ago. Ill bet you cant tell me what that number is? (I know by the way )Lets See who can guess that maker.Bet maybe one guy from germany .

and his (nic) name is?

best

[juoneen]

I was attempting to see who has the numbers missing on the m4 / numbers .I happened upon them ,and just wanted to see who in the buckles is on top of the numbers. I went looking because the 112 maker wasnt shown on any available list until this year, i finally found the missing numbers. Anybody have an M4 number they cant pin down , show the buckle mark , and ill tell you what they are. Just have to be in the missing numbers section. Later ill give the list of missing numbers. So lets see what turns up first. The GZM is made similair to the one shown, but unfortunaltely i have promised a guy who is doing a book with the rights to use it in his next publication. I wasnt trying to tease anybody with the buckle, but was trying to see if you could solve the mystery, and ill bet no one will , but maybe one german guy, as i said, thats a hint, nothing personal, could be any german guy. Ill wait awhile to see who can get the answer. so far numbers on the list missing are 82, 83, 89.111, 112,113,118, any others?

[schorschi]

I was attempting to see who has the numbers missing on the m4 / numbers .I happened upon them ,and just wanted to see who in the buckles is on top of the numbers. I went looking because the 112 maker wasnt shown on any available list until this year, i finally found the missing numbers. Anybody have an M4 number they cant pin down , show the buckle mark , and ill tell you what they are. Just have to be in the missing numbers section. Later ill give the list of missing numbers. So lets see what turns up first. The GZM is made similair to the one shown, but unfortunaltely i have promised a guy who is doing a book with the rights to use it in his next publication. I wasnt trying to tease anybody with the buckle, but was trying to see if you could solve the mystery, and ill bet no one will , but maybe one german guy, as i said, thats a hint, nothing personal, could be any german guy. Ill wait awhile to see who can get the answer.

Hello juoneen,
You have any mention of sources?
I can say M 4 112 is .... but i can not prov ite it

[juoneen]

Ya...I have the source also, doubt anyone has found them to date.. I like the m4 /46 buckle also, as ...it... looks good to me.

[Chad Williams]

so lets here your thoughts..proof or not..
Chad

[Sven Janke]

no proof, but here´s a list made out of several books:

sven

<table width="620" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" height="2100"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/82 List & Hertl</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/83 Josef Linzer&Co.</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/84 Grossmann & Co.</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/85 Friedrich Bibus & Sohn</td> <td colspan="3" width="266" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Mahrisch-Trubau (Sudetenland)</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/86 Sohni, Heubach & Co.</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Oberstein</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">S.H.u.Co.</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/87 Matt. Salcher & Söhne AG</td> <td colspan="3" width="266" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wagstadt (Sudetenland)</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/88 Augustin Hieke</td> <td colspan="3" width="266" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Tyssa bei Bodenbach (Sudetenland)</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/89 Reichelmann&Co</td> <td colspan="3" width="266" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Tellnitz bei Aussig (Sudetenland)</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/90 Adolf Grohmann & Sohn</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Würbenthal (Sudetenland)</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/91 Treuhänder der Fa. Bromberg</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Tschenstochau</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/92 Heinrich Ulbrichts Witwe</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="11">M4/93 Lenkwerk Brüder Schneider AG</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="11">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="11">"Kleeblatt"</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="10">nach Januar 1939: J. Hammer & Söhne </td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="10">Geringswalde</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="10">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/94 Raimond Moser</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/95 Franz Weinrank</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/96 Hans Pacher</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/97 Friedrich Orth</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/98 Franz Petzl</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/99 Franke & Sohn</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Heidenreichenstein</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/100 Rudolf Meschiga</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/101 Dominik Schönbaumsfeld´s Sohn</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/102 Wilhelm Prym</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/103 Rudolf Schanes</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/104 Phil. Turks Wwe.</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/105 Argentor Werke </td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/106 Maria Schenkl, Wien</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/107 Frank & Reif</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Stuttgart</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/108 Adalbert Kanngieser</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Wien</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/109 Rudolf und Karl Kraus</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Solingen</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/110 Josef Feix Söhne</td> <td colspan="2" width="200" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Gablonz (Sudetenland)</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">JFS</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/111 Robert Thiel Co</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Danzig</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/112 Rudolf Reich GmbH</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Danzig Langfuhr</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/113 Eichenholz & Sohn</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Danzig</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/114 Otto Honsel</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Werdohl</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/115 Klein & Quenzer</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Oberstein a. d. Nahe</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">K. u. Q.</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/116 CamiIl Bergmann & Co.</td> <td colspan="2" width="200" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Gablonz (Sudetenland)</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="293" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">M4/117 W. Aurich</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">Leipzig</td> <td width="112" bgcolor="#e8e8e8" height="21">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan="2" width="300" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">M4/118 Werner Redo Prägeanstalt u.
Abzeichenfabrik</td> <td colspan="2" width="154" bgcolor="#ffffff" height="21">Saarlautern</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

I was attempting to see who has the numbers missing on the m4 / numbers .I happened upon them ,and just wanted to see who in the buckles is on top of the numbers. I went looking because the 112 maker wasnt shown on any available list until this year, i finally found the missing numbers. Anybody have an M4 number they cant pin down , show the buckle mark , and ill tell you what they are. Just have to be in the missing numbers section. Later ill give the list of missing numbers. So lets see what turns up first. The GZM is made similair to the one shown, but unfortunaltely i have promised a guy who is doing a book with the rights to use it in his next publication. I wasnt trying to tease anybody with the buckle, but was trying to see if you could solve the mystery, and ill bet no one will , but maybe one german guy, as i said, thats a hint, nothing personal, could be any german guy. Ill wait awhile to see who can get the answer. so far numbers on the list missing are 82, 83, 89.111, 112,113,118, any others?

I sincerely hope you will be able to proove M4/112 was indeed attributed to Rudolf Reich. If you provide such proof, you will also certainly be able to proove he was the righteous holder of the M1 # 131. And, of course, since you have the information, when he did obtain those numbers (pre or post 1939). Until then, as righteousely pointed out by Sven Janke, everybody will assume you found the information reading older books on German belt buckles (or even older threads in this Forum like that one:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=133964

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

The GZM is made similair to the one shown

I unfortunately have to say that the HJ examples I saw myself had in common with the above buckle only the " / " after the M4 ...

[Chad Williams]

if you cant post pics of the buckle, how about just a pic of the makers mark?
thanks.>Chad

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

if you cant post pics of the buckle, how about just a pic of the makers mark?
thanks.>Chad

From the Village People ...

[Chad Williams]

JP thank you for posting the mark.. someone else was kind enough to send me full photos of a GZM HJ buckle front and back.. I have to say that I dont like the buckle.. I am not going to go as far as saying that it is a repro, but there are many attributes that sound the alarm for me. The stamping quality is sub par, the ears of the buckle are of a design that is not normal and reminds me of a repro design.. and we have still not discussed the Gzm ... The mark itself does not scare me, but with the other characteristics.. adds to my doubt.. I have seen many strange markings that I cant explain... this buckle is a mystery to me at the moment.. I would buy one if offered ; but would be doing so as a curriosity and I am betting that it would end up in my repro box..>Chad