Need help on SS officer belt and buckle

[Ben]

Hi all,

I am currently in the process of acquiring an old collection. In it is a small collection of some fine belts and buckles, however, I have no clue as far as the officer brocades are concerned. I have attached some pictures of the belts in question as well as of the collection itself. My question is obviously if these Off. belts are real. Any advise as to the value would also be greatly appreciated. If you need any better pictures than please let me know.
Many thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Ben

[Ben]

Second batch

[Ben]

The collection itself.
Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Ben

[buckle1]

Ben,

From what I see I would have to say that you did very well for yourself.All of the buckles as far as I am concerned are good. I am not that good on brocades but based on the fact that the buckles are good I would have to say that the belts are also good. Congratulations. It is rare these days to fall into this kind of bonanza.

Bill

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Both SS Brocades are looking original, and I strongly believe they are even if I will never rely on a photo to give a final call. The SS Officer buckle is original as well (I do not believe this SS Officer buckle was with this brocade since WWII since conditions are not matching, but original anyway), as is the police officer.
For other brocades, I don’t know since it is not my field of knowledge but you can trust Bill.

Now your second question (posted somewhere else):
To make it short, by 1938 the Police went under SS control. So, quickly after this transition, Police Officers had to wear the SS Brocade but with Police buckle. The only difference between this “Police” SS Brocade and regular “Waffen” SS Brocade was the shade of green on its back. “Police” SS Brocades were usually rather in “Police Green” and Waffen SS Brocades in darker green. Since many Police Officers did received equivalent honorary SS ranks by end of 1938, early 1939 saw a new order: any Police Officer holding a honorary SS rank as well HAD to wear the Police SS Brocade WITH SS Officer buckle. Later during the same year, the permission to wear of the Police SS Brocade WITH SS Officer buckle was extended to all Police Officers, holding or not honorary SS ranks, depending of their own preference since they could still wear the Police Officer buckle if it was their choice. But for Police Officers holding an honorary SS rank the previous order remained enforced (SS Brocade with Police Green backing and SS Officer buckle only).

Now, this are regulations, but there is so far no strict evidence than Waffen SS Officers never wore the Police SS Brocades and vice versa. We are talking just about shade of green which is visible only one or two millimeter on top and on bottom when the brocade is worn. So …

For much more detailed information about Police regulations or anything regarding the Police, ask J. Wotka since he is a master in this field but at least you have now a quick answer.

PS: Could you please be kind and post a close up shot showing front and back of your SS EM buckle in Nickel Silver ? Thank You per advance.

[Marc verstraete]

"Any help would be appreciated."
Cheers,
Ben


Hello Ben,

Very nice collection, some rare items. Don’t see anything obviously suspicious. I notice the names of the pictures, are you Dutch? If yes, we could meet somewhere in Belgium or Holland where I would examine the items closely and give you accurate value opinion. Especially the Officer buckle with the large black swastika and brocade with three horizontal lines deserves attention. I would like to see the back of it.
As for now, I would say, SS police 1000 or + (buckle is not SS marked but interesting marking on the brocade), SS officer 1500 / 2000, LW 350, WH 300, Forestry’s 200, HJ 1000, RAD 350.
Hope this helps,
Marc

[Ben]

Many thanks for the info guys.

Jean Pierre, I have included some pics of the SS buckle. I believe it's a pre war Overhoff & Cie (I read your articles very well) that was intended for the Algemeine.
I have also included pictures of the backing of both SS brocades. The SS buckle was on the lighter grey one which also had the stamp on it that is in the picture.

Mark,

yes I live near indeed. Just PM me and I'm sure we can meet.

I have included pictures of the back of the Luftschutz buckle for you.
I have also included some pictures of the HJ Off. buckle. Aren't these supposed to be much rarer than any of the other belts involved, at least this is what I have been told by the previous owner.

Let me know if there is anything else you guys want to see.

Once again, thank you very much for the great info!

Cheers,

Ben

[Ben]

Luftschutz and Hitler Youth brocades.

Cheers,

Ben

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Jean Pierre, I have included some pics of the SS buckle. I believe it's a pre war Overhoff & Cie (I read your articles very well) that was intended for the Algemeine.
I have also included pictures of the backing of both SS brocades. The SS buckle was on the lighter grey one which also had the stamp on it that is in the picture.

Hello Ben,

Indeed you are very right with the SS EM buckle: typical early Overhoff production, nothing special.

Regarding the SS brocades, the one on the top is also typical. The one at the bottom is much more interesting since the color looks unusual (don't worry, I do not have any problem with it) if it is not a digital effect. Looks like there is some shade of blue in it?? I am not at all studying rubber stamps so my input can be totaly erroneous, but looks like the one you are showing is a military postal stamp bearing a fieldpost number. Maybe someone else could give a better opinion.

Regarding prices, I would strongly advise to get more than one or two opinion since for once I do not agree with Marc's lowest side (remember I am the one supposed to provide lowest prices )
So, I will give you some facts, recent since they were at the latest MAX show last weekend:
- Police SS brocade and Police buckle (not SS marked) - Some moth damage on back - paid by a dealer to the customer $1100. Brocade for sale later at dealer's table for $1495. Still unsold at time of leaving.
- Mint Police SS brocade and beautiful Police buckle (SS marked): listed $1700. Sold to a German collector $1600.
- Mint Police SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2695. Still unsold at time of leaving.
- Mint Waffen SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2800. Still unsold at time of leaving.

Currently offered for sale (you can check by yourself):
- Mint Police SS brocade and very nice SS buckle: $2000 (Europe).
- Mint Police SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2500 (H.Weitze)
- Mint Waffen SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2550 (K.Winkler) Note: His belt bears the same marking on four lines as your

Regards

[Ben]

Hello Ben,

Indeed you are very right with the SS EM buckle: typical early Overhoff production, nothing special.

Regarding the SS brocades, the one on the top is also typical. The one at the bottom is much more interesting since the color looks unusual (don't worry, I do not have any problem with it) if it is not a digital effect. Looks like there is some shade of blue in it?? I am not at all studying rubber stamps so my input can be totaly erroneous, but looks like the one you are showing is a military postal stamp bearing a fieldpost number. Maybe someone else could give a better opinion.

Regarding prices, I would strongly advise to get more than one or two opinion since for once I do not agree with Marc's lowest side (remember I am the one supposed to provide lowest prices )
So, I will give you some facts, recent since they were at the latest MAX show last weekend:
- Police SS brocade and Police buckle (not SS marked) - Some moth damage on back - paid by a dealer to the customer $1100. Brocade for sale later at dealer's table for $1495. Still unsold at time of leaving.
- Mint Police SS brocade and beautiful Police buckle (SS marked): listed $1700. Sold to a German collector $1600.
- Mint Police SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2695. Still unsold at time of leaving.
- Mint Waffen SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2800. Still unsold at time of leaving.

Currently offered for sale (you can check by yourself):
- Mint Police SS brocade and very nice SS buckle: $2000 (Europe).
- Mint Police SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2500 (H.Weitze)
- Mint Waffen SS brocade and mint SS buckle: $2550 (K.Winkler) Note: His belt bears the same marking on four lines as your

Regards

JP,

I almost choaked on my coffee! Looks like I have been pretty fortunate!
Both brocades are in mint condition as is the police buckle. The SS has wear to it but it is still very nice (better than in the pictures actually).
Thank you so much for the additional info. I had to get these items to get to the rest of the collection.
I particularly like the NPEA leader buckle, something I had never seen before in real life myself.
Once again, THANKS!

Cheers,

Ben

[Marc verstraete]

Hello Ben, all,

This is new, being reproached to give too low prices! Especially by JP who has non stop harassed me for my so called ‘too High prices’. See post
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=29626

Anyway, I will not go further in to this mater.
The prices I have given you yesterday where MINIMUM prices to help you form yourself an idea as I had no view of the details of the brocades. This is why I suggested a meeting where I could see the items personally. When speaking about thousands of Euros, one has to be careful.
With the pictures you sent today I will give you better estimations.
If the SS brocade has indeed a different color than Waffen SS green, police green or black. Bleu or gray for example, the value will go to MINIMUM 3500 or more. Again, for these high prices I have to see the item in person as low quality pictures posted on the net are not reflecting true colors.
A not SS marked normal officer police buckle will sell for around 150 / 200; this is what I sell them when I have spare.
SS brocade, (Police green or W SS green) without buckle will sell between 800 and 1300.
Prices at the MAX where around these numbers. The most expensive police SS brocade I saw was 1600. Naked SS brocades have been sold for 900 and 1000 $. The nicest brocade I saw was a mint black back allgemeine SS brocade with mint buckle for 2800 $ but the dealer was ready to lower under 2500.
I believe JP bought nice black brocade and buckle for les than 2000.
Prices at the ‘big” dealers in Europe (Germany) are ridiculous for the moment and this is due to the crash of the $$ last year. Many items where bought at a high $ value and dealers just change to the strongest currency. They are also not selling these items!
HJ leader’s brocades and buckle in the condition of yours will be advertised for 1000 to 1500 but will not sell at theses prices, I have one for sale in mint condition, buckles AND brocade with original tags for 1200 and are unable to sell it for two years. HJ people are not big spenders! Even if the item is indeed scarcer than a SS brocade.
The DLV brocade and buckle, IF ORIGINAL will go for 1500 euro or more but I still have to exanimate it personally as I don’t like the center attachment, fakes of these buckles are generally made with a center bold screw. This screw can be replaced by a welding spot to look more original. Value for the other brocades is unchanged as these are the prices I sell my similar items for.
I probably don’t have to say this as you are probably well aware of the behavior of some persons in the business, but be careful with estimations, some people will give you very high prices just for the trill of it but will never pay these prices. (Did you see the movie “the ninth gate?) When I give prices, I am also ENGAGING myself to PAY these prices. Doing this on a public forum like this is the best warranty. Anyway, JP is right, if you want to sell, you better ask around.
I hope for you that you made a good deal on this collection.
Let us know if you need help with the EM 45 m/m buckles.
Hope to meet you one day in our beautiful country.
Marc

[Ben]

Hi Mark,

thank you for your advise.
I have send you a PM.

Ben

[Greg Sebring]

The collection itself.
Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Ben

Ben,

A quick question from a very un-knowledgable holder of his Dads WWII souveniers. On your group photo with 16 buckles, what is the one on the bottom lower left? It's round, gold tone, with a winged wheel (looks like a train wheel). I have one just like it attached to a black leather belt. I find it hard for this dummy to even understand the abbreviations at lot of posts have. Hopefully I'll catch on someday.

Thanks

Greg

[Pascal H.]

Ben,

A quick question from a very un-knowledgable holder of his Dads WWII souveniers. On your group photo with 16 buckles, what is the one on the bottom lower left? It's round, gold tone, with a winged wheel (looks like a train wheel). I have one just like it attached to a black leather belt. I find it hard for this dummy to even understand the abbreviations at lot of posts have. Hopefully I'll catch on someday.

Thanks

Greg

Hi Greg,

The buckle you pointed out is the Gold brocade dress belt as worn by railway officials.

Pascal

[Jean Pierre Redeuilh]

Hello Ben, all,

This is new, being reproached to give too low prices! Especially by JP who has non stop harassed me for my so called ‘too High prices’

Nothing has changed. It is exactly what I said: "For once I do not agree with Marc's lowest side" (since I couldn't conceive it was your higher side). And I also wrote: "remember I am the one supposed to provide lowest prices". Which means you are/were not. So, I believe I am still in line with myself. Maybe my mistake was to use "for once" since it is true that usually your lowest is my higher. So, ok, next time I will change for: Once again, I do not agree with blah, blah, blah...

Bleu or gray for example, the value will go to MINIMUM 3500 or more

I deeply agree since there is only less than five known worldwide.

Prices at the MAX where around these numbers. The most expensive police SS brocade I saw was 1600. Naked SS brocades have been sold for 900 and 1000 $. The nicest brocade I saw was a mint black back allgemeine SS brocade with mint buckle for 2800 $ but the dealer was ready to lower under 2500.

Not $1600, $1700. $1600 was the price sold. Seller is A.L. He can confirm this.
The mint Allgemeine SS you are refering was $3000 and I do not believe Graig was ready to go down $2500 - at least not during the three days I stayed at his table. We can look price at his website since I believe he still has it.

I believe JP bought nice black brocade and buckle for les than 2000.

Yes, correct. $1300 to be exact. But, like usual, we can not take as reference a deal which happens as often as you are loosing an eye. For once, I do no longer talk about "average market value" since some can find a way to do not agree without proof, but I am now providing pure facts which can be ascertain. At least three other members were with me when we checked those most expensive SS brocades and buckles. So, maybe you did not see those, but they were there and I let my fellow members to back me up if they wish. For the others, one can log to their website anytime.

I probably don’t have to say this as you are probably well aware of the behavior of some persons in the business, but be careful with estimations, some people will give you very high prices just for the trill of it but will never pay these prices.

I will be surprised a dealer will give a high price to buy the item. If you know one, please let me know him . But I agree it is one thing to offer an item to high price and another one to sell it. This is why I am now just providing facts, and no longer a value based on my personnal experience. But one thing I do agree with you, those prices are much higher than last year.

Regards