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    Prices.............

    Hello All,

    I have been looking at some older posts and what attracted my attention is the repeating questions and complaining about prices, the last topic been the SS overhoff hull text buckle a few days ago. Is this the only thing the forum is good for?

    Prices are based on what the collector is willing to give for a specific item.

    By some dealers one item will be expensive for one customer and the same object will be cheaper for another customer. He will speculate on the financial capacity of the customer.
    Other dealers will overprice the item because they deliver a lifetime warranty and do not want to deal with cheap customers; they only need customers with loads of cash. No time to waist!

    Some collectors will collect only one limited type of objects and will have the tendency of giving more for this object as it is the only thing he needs even if they pay much more than the value, others, who collect everything will have to be more careful as there are lots of things they need.
    Some people just have no time to shop around to discover the “ best price” but want something right away and original. These will go to the best dealer and will be happy to pay for this comfort.

    The nickel SS EM buckle one buy at the gun show for $200 but 12 H driving or more from home will cost more than the $500 one from the ruptured duck when calculating the spending on gas, food, lodging and time! A 4-day trip to the max show cost for a European who have one table at the show about $2500 including hotel, flight and food. Driving from CT to Pittsburgh to attend the 4 days MAX show cost minimum $1000 including one table
    Lots of $$$ for the two buckles at $150 or $200!!!
    Some people are lucky and have time to spare and are spending 10h and more a day on the Internet to browse all the possible sites where one of these buckles could be obtained, not everybody has this luxury. Some people time is worth lots of money and prefers not to spend it on surfing for the hypothetic miracle.
    Just imagine a good dentist who’s time is worth hundred of $$$ a hour surfing the interned, the forums and E-bay instead of working. This to discover the rare buckle he’s missing from his collection. The day this item comes up he will also have to fight other people so the price will not necessarily be cheap. The final price for this “$150 buckle” will end up costing him thousand’s of $$$!
    He will prefer to work and make lots of $$$ and just wait for a Californian dealer to call and say: “I have the item you need, it’s $ xxx. I’ll send it to you by fed ex, you have it tomorrow”

    I have done it all; the far flea markets and shows 12 h driving in the night to get there before the others. (This never succeeds anyway)
    The all night long surfing on the net (when e-bay was not censored) to end up fighting the fellow collector and ending up paying the full price.
    I even had my very own successful militaria shop. In the best days of the militaria collecting time (the 80’s)

    This all has teach me a few things

    It seems that all what interest most (not all) of the collectors is the price of the object!!! Unfortunately most of the collectors are this way; they collect a specific item because it is worth money, easily sellable (they think) and very popular.
    I take my head of for the collectors of tinies, tram uniforms and Red Cross material!!!!

    The basic golden rule to recognise a good, successful antique dealer / collector is: buy at the price of yesterday and sell at the tomorrow’s price!!

    Ones one item has been sold for an overpriced price, not matter why this happen, this price will set the tendency and will be adopted by everyone.
    I have buckles in my collection that I paid $500 at the last MAX show, these buckles where on the tables for two or more days at this show. This means the price was too expensive. (I would guess logically) Now, one year later some collectors are willing to offer me $1000+ for the items. What is the value?????? $500, $1000 or $1500 ??

    So, buy if you like the item and if you can afford it. At least you will not spend this money on drugs, cigarettes, (the same) or booze ( also the same)!!!
    Don’t listen too much to the ones who tell you that prices are ridiculous but who themselves are buying the items cheap only to resell them for the maximum top value under another name.

    An remember:
    When one loves, he doesn’t count!!!

    Marc V.

    #2
    Marc,
    Unfortunately even if there is some truth in your input, the fact that you are one, if not "the" most important dealer in German Belt Buckles does not help to enforce your point.
    The collecting joy does not have to be reserved to people having their photo in "Fortune Magazine"! This is dealer's talk defending his inventory! So, what do you advise? Closing our eyes, open our wallets and accept it like the new world because some does? If twenty years later a labor class worker still can't have his money back, don't be worry, his heart beat once, followed it, so he has to be happy, is the answer? No, this guy had a chance to have been mislead and I do not agree money has to rule this hobby when it is based on no reason. Don't worth a trip? for one or two items, could be, but we both know at least one European dealer coming to shows and buying "many" SS Buckles less than $200 (sometimes more than 20 per trip) and selling those in Europe for no less than $300. That is regular business but worth the trip expenses since those belt buckles are not the only purchases done.
    You don't seem to make differences between dealers neither: some like Bill do give a lifetime money back guarantee (and I agree you have to pay for this feature - up to a certain extend) and also some like Bill again will re-purchase whatever they sold even decades later - and I agree this has to be paid also, but some others will sell to the same price - saying "it is the current price" and will leave the customer on his own later. So, yes, service and guarantee has a price but it is not THE market value everybody has to take profit off. I just call those offering nothing else and keeping prices up just oportunity takers, not something to be proud.
    Please don't fool yourself: at the Max you were the one ending up with the two previousely mentionned full motto available this day. By your own words (not mine), they were outrageousely out of range, and you only get those because you traded one following my advise (since after all the final price involved end up cheaper), and the second was a gift from the dealer following a transaction. So, you were thinking the exact same!! Why this change of attitude lately? Your talk reminds me many brokers during the "Internet Bubble" on Wall Street. QCOM at $1000 target given by many analysts. QCOM is $38 as of today and the same analysts are saying it could be still overvaluated! So, buying today at yesterday price and selling at tomorrow's? Do you know what will be tomorrow? Of course, for someone in "Fortune Magasine" tomorrow is not really important. But we are talking about regular collectors, not fortunate collectors for who collecting will never be a problem pricewise.

    On another level, as far as I know, John is not selling under another name and always kept his prices within reason. For myself I do not sell more than three to four SS Buckles per year under my name (and yet when I have enough duplicates to do so) or sometimes in consignment. So, where are those "bad" people leading the way?

    I guess it is maybe time I start to buy and sell SS Buckles to the public to show prices are within most people's expectations still having profit!
    Last edited by Jean Pierre Redeuilh; 07-26-2003, 03:11 PM.
    Jean Pierre Redeuilh
    All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

    Comment


      #3
      Hey guys,the last gun show I went to the SS buckles were going for 125 USD.This was from a trusted dealer ,however not all looked right .So needless to say I passed on all ,if it sounds too good it probably is....J S

      Comment


        #4
        Hello again,

        This discussion can go on and on. It is endless and I will stop after this message.

        Yes, I think German militaria is too expensive and prices are sometimes outrageous and over valuated; but I’m not the one complaining ALL the time about it.
        I also live in Europe; prices here are still cheaper for regular stuff. (in general and except for the big dealers)

        Buckles are still very cheap compare to the other German stuff. Reason I stopped collecting all the other stuff to put all my resources in the buckles. I predicted a few years ago they would go up in prices.

        No one complain about the price of a SS dagger who’s value was about $500 or less 10 years ago and are now selling in the US for $2000 and more!!!

        I sell my RODO buckles today for $350, 10 years ago in Europe in my shop they where $200. Big difference in inflation compare to the dagger don’t you think??

        Or lets speak about the uniforms?? I sold my 2 mint condition never worn SS EM vests from my previous uniform collection to two US dealers for les than $1000 each about 4 y ago.
        This was at that time the average value of these vests in Belgium.
        One month later they where full of insignias for sale at these two dealers for:
        1- $3000+ (described as been re sewn insignias)
        2- $10.000+ as original SS LAH !!!

        You do not have to be the business man of the year in Time magazine to collect buckles but one have to make a choice in haw you will collect.

        -For the joy of collecting and going to shows for the fun of it, buying only when under priced. With time and lots of luck and knowledge you will end up wit a nice collection. (I admire the collector who can say NO to an item he really wants!)

        -For competition with the others, personal pride or investment (this is what most collectors do!!! You and me included JP, face it); and you will have to accept the prices if you can’t live without the item.

        I pay well when I want something, and I sell average when I have spares.

        My rodo’s and my nickel’s are $350. Not $200 but not $550 eider.

        What about you JP?? What will your prices be the day you will sell your stuff??
        Will you go to a show and sell everything for half the price of the big dealers or will you call someone like me and sell on top price, as you know who will pay the most for the item he is missing???????

        This price escalade is also and merely due to the globalisation, (easy travel and the internet.) and the fluctuation of the US $.

        The buckle I bought 4 years ago with the very weak $ in the states for $ 200 cost me at that time 150 €
        The same buckle last year at the MAX cost me for the same $200 (because of the high dollar) 240€ or € 90 more for the same buckle
        Now the $ is week again. If I sell this €240 buckle back in the US at this years MAX I have to sell it for $280 just to have my money back
        Do the same with items worth $ thousands and the differences are enormous!!!!!!

        The Bill Shea buckle at $550 last year was outrageous for me because it costs me 660€
        (Like you mention, I did not buy them, I traded one and received the other one part of a agreement.)
        This year the same buckle would cost me 450€. Expensive but not outrageous!!!

        The end.

        Marc

        Comment


          #5
          Just imagine a good dentist who’s time is worth hundred of $$$ a hour surfing the interned, the forums and E-bay instead of working. This to discover the rare buckle he’s missing from his collection. The day this item comes up he will also have to fight other people so the price will not necessarily be cheap. The final price for this “$150 buckle” will end up costing him thousand’s of $$$!
          Marc,
          Sombody in mind??
          Pieter.
          SUUM CUIQUE ...
          sigpic

          Comment


            #6
            Marc,
            I can only agree with you...
            Teka

            Comment


              #7
              Buckle Prices

              A still small voice in the dark!

              As someone who collects as a hobby and furthermore, specialises in "box", non military, political and 1920's to 1930's era buckles, I too find the prices at both European fairs and on the various and well known internet sites, as inconsistent to say the least.

              The point that I wish to make however is that "you pay your money and take your choice".

              In a perfect world, there would be a catholic application on prices, however I still have no hesitation whatsoever towards paying say double the recognised price on a distinct, unusual or variation SA if missing from my collection.

              Simply because I want it now and f i do not purchase it, a guarantee that somebody else will.

              Surely all part of the "chase" and I can assure everyone that I am not blase with regard to hard earned money.

              Regards,

              David

              Comment


                #8
                Johnny,
                Price is not the key to genuine or fake items. There are many dealers not specialized in buckles who will sell whatever they have (been genuine AND not) to the same price. Up to the buyer to know how to make the difference, buy the good and leave the bad. Of course, this is valid for any collectable item.

                Marc,
                So, you feel frustrated because some took advantage on the stuffs you were selling? I can understand, it is not fun, but this is not the issue since we were not talking about how to be ripp off. Learn what you have before selling it always been a golden rule, and every collector has his own story, including myself.
                We were not talking about where or to which dealer to sell what we have since everybody knows at least someone who is the most interested by what he has and will use this outlet first. As a dealer and collector in the same time, you will buy what you wish for your own collection to an higher price than what needed to run your business, where only profit is to take in consideration. This is perfectly normal and up to each individual (and of course to the weight of his wallet) to decide how much he wants to go to please his collection. There is nothing new or wrong there.
                We were talking about AVERAGE market value or just MARKET VALUE if you prefer. The $ fluctuation versus the Euro was not taken in consideration neither since as you pointed out, one day it is cheaper to buy in the US, next day in Europe since prices are leveling now (globalisation, internet, whatever the reason...) Like yourself, I buy from both continents.
                I did not mention prices YOU are offering your buckles, neither prices YOU can pay, neither amount needed of money to reach a show and if it worth it or not (if there is so many collectors/dealers at the SOS or the MAX there has to be a reason), but AVERAGE MARKET PRICES.
                Yes, I spend all my time screening the internet or replying to messages via personnal emails and now twice a year I am returning to the SOS and the MAX (what I quit to do from 1997 to 2002). Only one thing in my mind: SS Buckles - Real AND fakes - nothing else (you have been with me so you can't say it is not true). So, yes, I can tell I have a pretty good idea about AVERAGE MARKET VALUE (and I never included auctions in this figure - These are just a ponctual very good or very bad deal) which is not the most outrageous price seen in the year, or the cheapest. but the average. a price one does not have real problem to find by himself. My job, as moderator, is to tell the truth and to prevent collectors to be mislead and I can always backed up my input by fact. I am sorry if it looks like "complaining" ALL the time. I am for sure endorsing sky high prices for very rare items, or items in not the AVERAGE condition just because they are ... rare. But common SS Buckles in average condition? There is still 1000's original around!
                So, I still continue to think collectors deserve to know the truth by FACTS and I am sorry if it does bother some dealers not feeling they have enough profit (Please do not take this last sentence for you).

                End of my side also
                Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                Comment


                  #9
                  .....who has a mint tagged SS-EM alu buckle for me at a "market price"....
                  Pieter.


                  Ps :I also buy from both continents....
                  SUUM CUIQUE ...
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #10

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Pieter,
                      Unfortunately we have to wait for you to sell all yours before there could be enough of them available to generate a somehow accurate "market value". Let me know when you start to sell
                      Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                      All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I think my asking about the price of a full motto O and C piece vs the abreviated "O & C" was what started this post. I was curious as to the price difference because in my mind this price difference, on average also gives an indication to the difference in rarity...and since my quesiton was in a post that had already pictured such a buckle I do not see what the problem was...this forum is about militaria and...yes....the prices of militaria.

                        If a person wants to pay double for what you can usually get an item for because it is convenient for him...well...let him do it...it is his money....not everybody is Bill Gates, and good for those who are. However, if a person does not realize that with a little effort he could get this same item for half the price and ends up paying double, he may regret this.

                        I like to go out to shows, place adds, talk to people, network, trade, buy from old collections, vets etc to get my pieces...I will even buy on the internet. For me the fun is also in "hunting" for the piece...this is part of the hobby...sure sometimes you may pay more money on gas, rooms, admission fee, food etc than it is worth when you go to a show to buy an item, but at least you know there will be something there to buy...and you can learn by looking at the fakes and the real pieces...when I go to shows I always look at the tables of dealers selling fake pieces as real to educate myself what is new on the market....the lastest fakes I have seen, nice engraved bayonets with packets, ek1s in box with cardboard outer packets, and dogtags complete with carrying case.

                        This hobby is not just for the top 5 percent of the population...it is for everybody...both the rich the not so rich and yes even the poor, and if somebody wants to shop around to get the lowest price for an item, he should do it, if he wants to go to a web site and buy an item for absolute top price (usually from a dealer who will not even pay you half of this price when buying an item--I am not referring to anybody in particular so nobody get mad at me okay) he should do it. When people buy gasoline that is what they do also...they shop around for the lowest rate...to save a few pennies, yet these same persons will not complain when paying double for an item of militaria...go figure!

                        I remember when I was younger--a teenager even, some dealers would not give me the time of day when I would ask about an item they had for sale...that is fine with me...I realize that militaria/coin/stamp/antique dealers are no better or no worse than anybody....you have the good and the bad...but if a dealer does not wish to give me the time of day because he feels I can not afford to buy his expensive item or because he feels he is "better than me" (look at me, I am a rich important dealer...and you are nobody!) well then, I simply will not patronize him, and I will tell my friends of my experience with this person and let them make up their own minds up as to whether or not they wish to deal with this person....(again, I am not referring to anybody in particular so nobody get mad).

                        Anyway, here is a picture...have a nice day guys,

                        John
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                          #13
                          John,
                          We need both to stop! If not, some will start to call us communist !!
                          Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                          All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                          Comment


                            #14
                            hehe, true Jean Pierre we better be carefull



                            John

                            Comment


                              #15
                              re

                              Yes I do Hate all that hughe prices

                              P.s does someone have backalite w-ss buckle for me ?????

                              I have about 200$ to spend


                              Greeting,s Johnny
                              sigpicalways seeking = BEVO Cap and breast insignia

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