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**panzerlord1** · 04-03-2007, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by David North View Post

An earlier contribution to this thread asked two questions to myself as... "(1) why do u (sic) feel the need to apologise for what others have writen (sic) ???? and (2) why should the moderators remove this thread..."

A reasonable brace of questions.

It has never been a past feature of this forum to indulge in this type of exchange, however the profile and quality of any forum is dictated by the profile and quality of the contributing members.

A large number of dealers sites and which I regularly visit, display for sale buckles which at their best are questionable and at their worst, are fakes. I make no complaint about this and really it is the nature of the beast. The critical feature however is when a fake buckle is being sold with utmost good faith by the dealer, rather than to intentionally deceive.

Tom Wittmann and in my opinion, is a highly respected dealer, author and authority on a subject matter that is not belt buckles. It is inconceivable that Tom Wittmann would sell this buckle in question, knowing that it was a fake. The buckle referred to is not even a clever or sophisticated fake and which gives more credence to the assumption that Tom Wittmann acted innocently and again, in utmost good faith.

Why though should there be such a focus and in parts, nasty and vitriolic attack on a dealer in isolation and who in my opinion has quite simply a premier reputation and is furthermore, not known for this type of behaviour.

Where do we start and where do we end ?

Perhaps there are those would would like to work through the alphabet on an A to Z basis and systematically expose all the fakes on all the sites.

I think not.

It was because of what I considered to be a grossly unfair focus and attack on one single dealer, that I as a regular contributor to the WA forum, felt the need to offer a personal and not a collective apology.

This form of singular isolation and again in my opinion, is not what this forum has ever adopted before and quite simply, I think that it gives us a very bad reputation. May I say also, that if this thread had been directed at one of the many other honest, fair and reputable dealers, then I would have reacted in exactly the same way.

I think that it is infra dig and does us no justice whatsoever to engage and waste our time on this type of thread and I truly hope that it is never repeated. This nonsense takes our eye of the ball and as such, I for one thought that the thread should have been deleted some time back. There are really more interesting aspects of collecting to discuss within this forum which I think is now a tad tarnished, than prattling on about a premier grade dealer who has made a mistake in again, utmost good faith.

Regards,

David

David

Why should this thread have been deleted, do other collectors not have the right to know about other collectors dealings.

If this forum has one great use it will be to weed out all who deem to be on the dark side and praise the ones who strive to bring us the best in third Reich militaria!!!

This forum makes the collecting world a very small place don’t u think. I am a Helmet collector and I know we had a similar thread about a big dealer who got caught switching liners at no point did any of the big Helmet collectors winge to the moderators to remove the thread everybody was allowed to say there bit!!!!

I for one am disappointed in the number of collectors who wish not to hear of other people’s misfortunes and simply want to dismiss what one collector has to say

This will be my last post on the matter

Panzerlord

**SS Mikey** · 04-03-2007, 04:29 PM

I usually don't have much to say, but you know this is quite simple:

If one sells fakes/reproductions expect to get called out and rightfully so. It's that simple. I don't care who you are. If your a dealer with an exceptional reputation I suspect you will be held to a higher standard than other dealers with less than desireable reputations and thus the appearance of being "singled" out. Don't shoot the messenger for pointing it out !

As far as Wittman's intentions or motives are no one really knows. Many of you may of had email/phone correspondence with him, but you do not know his intentions. Only he does! Anything else is just assumptions and speculation, but it would appear from some of the posts he (Wittman) is no Saint, but surely is not the Anti-Christ either so I guess you can just put him in purgatory I don't no.

He had a fake on his sight, he was called on it, and he did the right thing and removed it.

**Gunther Beckman** · 04-04-2007, 06:59 PM

**Sven Janke** · 04-05-2007, 01:37 PM

In my eyes a dealer should know the stuff he is selling.

he should give a guarantee and take items back when he made a mistake.

selling fakes on purpose is another story.
i am quite sure that no dealer can afford to cheat on his clients if he wants to be successful for a longer time.

sven

**Richard** · 04-14-2007, 12:36 PM

I don't know the dealer and may or may not have dealings with him in the future but there are arguments I see on both sides.

Any dealer would not (and should not) take an e-mail or one person's word for the fact that an item on their website is a fake. They should, however, respond to the individual's concerns, do their due diligence on the item and pull it if due diligence determines the suspect item is indeed fake.

The item in question has been, more than once, termed an OBVIOUS fake. Sure, not every one can know everything but someone that does this for a living should be aware of most of the well known or obvious fakes or reproductions. Telling the collector that they need to be the one to know what they are buying because all dealers unknowingly may have listed a fake or two is wrong. Yes the collector should be educated but can you tell if the veggies at your store have been irradiated or genetically modified if not told? Would you be able to rely on your own knowledge of food to determine the ingredients in the canned products you buy without a label?

For purchases we rely, to a certain extent, on the knowledge and information imparted by the seller. These aren't garage sales we are buying from where the seller supposedly doesn't know what they have. These are the professionals in the business and as such should be intimately familiar with what they sell or should have resources to ensure that what they sell is genuine. Most advertise they sell nothing but pre 1945 material. They should try to do their best to ensure it is so. Think of an art gallery that continues to have the "occasional" reproduction Renoir and how long they would stay in business.

If the dealer is unsure of the authenticity of an item, he/she should not assume it is and advertise it as such. A disclaimer of saying they are unsure of authenticity would go a long way in keeping a dealer from being labeled as a purveyor of fakes.

I understand that in this complex hobby the occasional reproduction may slip through. It will reinforce any sellers reputation to stand behind what they sell and provide a full refund to any thing purchased from them which is questionable or fake.

Just my 2c

Richard V

**hess** · 04-14-2007, 04:03 PM

wittman

well said Richard cant agree more

**TxGauleiter** · 04-15-2007, 05:55 PM

very well stated richard

**all1knew** · 04-24-2015, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Luftm40 View Post

..of course the buckle is bad. He is a dealer and all dealers sell fakes...period. It will sell eventually to someone who trusts him unconditionally and doesn't bother to learn right from wrong on their own.

a good read here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=798421

I'll bring a post over to this thread:

this skull here:

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/36569.htm

priced at $350

This guy is known for having absurd prices on things, and yet this early skull (not late-war zinc) is priced next to nothing considering what authentic cupal TK's go for. This is not an accident the dealer looked over, this is a plain attempt to defraud an unsuspecting collector.

William Kramer

**colt45s** · 04-24-2015, 11:26 AM

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/collectin...ectingroom.htm he gave me the best price on my daggers

**Belten** · 04-24-2015, 03:06 PM

Wittmann's website is groaning with a mixture of fake and real buckles, all at astronomical prices. He's friends with a dealer who goes to my local show, who was once arrested for attempting to steal documents in Germany, and whose cases are also full of high-end fake garbage. You'll sometimes find him waddling around the SOS in YouTube videos, gawking at all sorts of ridiculous fakes, including Wehrmacht toilet paper, which is really quite appropriate.

As William points out, the website often prices obvious fakes much lower than a genuine example, but still way too much for fakes, in the hope of roping in a gullible deal seeker. A savvy collector might be able to find a good deal there, but be cautious and don't trust every famous name.

**behblc** · 04-24-2015, 06:18 PM

The items I was trying to agree a price on were some flags, all good but too highly priced.

**klr** · 04-24-2015, 07:35 PM

Just looked at his buckles and most of them are original but most are priced 50-100% over market value.

**all1knew** · 04-25-2015, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by klr View Post

Just looked at his buckles and most of them are original but most are priced 50-100% over market value.

that's my point, authentic and common buckles are priced astronomically, but then super desirable SS insignia that collector's go crazy for (that coincidentally happens to be fake as can be) is priced HALF OFF RETAIL.

That doesn't add up as an honest mistake, that's a professional attempt to swindle an unknowing buyer.

William Kramer

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