KM buckle from Brest

[gingerbread]

Hi

Can i have more information about this model of KM buckle? I found this buckle in a farm around the city of Brest in Brittany.





Regards
Ben

[regiment739]

Is the inner Gott mitt uns Aluminium? Seems strange to me that the inner piece is from a early two piece Heer buckle and the box could be from anything pre 1933 really, I dont know what to tell you.

Sorry!

[gingerbread]

Nothing more?



Nothing more!!!

Regards
Ben

[Ric Ferrari]

Nothing more!!!

Regards
Ben

Ben,

all the KM buckles made of brass must be considered not original : all the known original ones are made by aluminum, steel or zink (rare Belgian variant).

Regards

Ric

[regiment739]

Thanks for the info Ric, the buckle just did make sense to me if you know what I mean and why the fakers had aged to the extent they did just confused me, I initially thought it may have been an original repair/made up buckle!!! I have never seen anything like it

[gingerbread]

KM Buckle

Hi

I can confirm that this buckle is absolutely original!!!!!!
I just want meet someone who know this kind of model. I think that it's a prewar model.









Regards
Ben from Lorient (Brittany)

[Ric Ferrari]

Hi

I can confirm that this buckle is absolutely original!!!!!!
I just want meet someone who know this kind of model. I think that it's a prewar model.


Regards

Ben from Lorient (Brittany)

Ben,

I sincerely hope you will meet someone (in this Forum) who has the same kind of buckle and certified original , it will be the occasion to learn something new by myself

Regards

Ric

[regiment739]

To be honest Ben, I have never seen a buckle like it and dont really know what to make of it, I dont think alot of collectors would, my advice would to pm David North or Marc Ver, they might know. Unless anyone out there has one of these and could post pics?

[gingerbread]

New information



It's could be a prewar parade model?

Regards
Ben

[regiment739]

No ben, I have never seen a pre-war parade buckle like that

[Marc verstraete]

Hi Guys, Sorry it took so long to reply.
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This is an interesting buckle and post; first I have a few extra questions.
<o></o>
Ben (from France) did you find the buckle yourself and under what condition? <o></o>
The body of the buckle looks steel with gold plating, is this correct? <o></o>
When I look at the condition of the buckle I intend to believe this is not the work of a faker. It would need a lot of work to age the gold plating like this. I’ve found a few classic gold steel buckles in the same condition. Of course, having the buckle in my hands would be ideal for a definite opinion. I just go by my personal experience of collecting buckles for 30 years and having done lots of digging myself in the past.<o></o>
Lets say the buckle was really found where Ben says it was. Then we are back at the original question: what is it?<o></o>
Textbook is good but one has to know that the books don’t know everything and that the very few books on the subject are made by collectors who are limited in what the know or have seen. There are indeed, as Ric says, a few textbook known gold KM buckles variations. The classic RS&S one piece aluminum, The one piece gold plated steel buckle with crank catch, the gold plated steel with regular catch, a scarce Belgium made gold (painted?) pebbled buckle made of a magnetic alloy (I have not encounter a Belgium one in Zink…. Ric ??)<o></o>
Besides this there are some odd variations that are 100% original. I encountered a Zink two- piece buckle, pebbled and gold anodized…. A strange two-piece bronze alloy buckle…<o></o>
The combination of a steel body with an aluminum inset or other material combinations is not unseen. It exists for other buckles, LW (Zink buckle with aluminum inset) WH and other political or para-military organizations…Why not for a KM one?<o></o>
Many manufactures made non regulation buckles, When aluminum buckles where replaced by steel buckles around 39 / 40 manufactures still used some inventory that was available and made compositions of diferend metals. So why not this one…<o></o>
Last point… Almost all the KM buckles found in Brittany, Normandy and the channel are steel ones….This is why in the north- west of France, the crank catch is called “marine catch”…<o></o>
For more pictures on KM buckles go to:<o></o>
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79821&highlight=KM<o></o>
<o></o>
Marc<o></o>

[Ric Ferrari]

....a scarce Belgium made gold (painted?) pebbled buckle made of a magnetic alloy (I have not encounter a Belgium one in Zink…. Ric ??)<o></o>........

Hallo Marc,

thanks, I did hope to read your opinion on this amazing subject.
In my experience all you stated is confirmed, but it remains open the question :
can we consider 100 % original Ben's buckle ? We can't forget that many KM fake by brass surface the market.....and on the other hand I saw the first SA 2 pieces fake buckles 25 years ago.....the above reasoning based on a supposed brass made box

About the Belgian KM "zink" made :

I know at least 5 different type of buckles all with the same features and probably made by the same maker in Belgium : Werkschutz Reitz, Heer, LW, KM and Wallonien labour service . (I may also consider Flemish VNV even if 2 pieces made...)
I own 4 of them and all are made by non-magnetic (zink ?) alloy, this has convinced me the KM one being the same (unfortunately I do not own it..... ) Am I wrong ?

Ric

[Marc verstraete]

Hello Ric, All,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
I agree, the brass buckles of brass / gold color supposedly KM that are seen on the market are fake. My reasoning on the above buckle is that it is a steel body…<o></o>
<o></o>
As for the Belgian made buckles, my memory might be wrong, I’m not at home and cannot look at mine. They might indeed be non magnetic. I have to correct you on one point. Reitz did not make these buckles. Reitz only manufactured cloth items and uniforms. Until now, no information was found as to who exactly manufactured these buckles.<o></o>
There exist following Belgian made buckles: WH – LW – KM – Walloon labor – Flemish collaboration with Delta (one piece and two piece) - with wolfsagle (one and two pieces) – with Lion (the scarcest one) – HJ and the much desirable Flemish SS.<o></o>
<o></o>
Marc<o></o>

[Ric Ferrari]

....Reitz did not make these buckles......Until now, no information was found as to who exactly manufactured these buckles.<o></o>
__________________________________________________ ____________
There exist following Belgian made buckles: WH – LW – KM – Walloon labor – Flemish collaboration with Delta (one piece and two piece) - with wolfsagle (one and two pieces) – with Lion (the scarcest one) – HJ and the much desirable Flemish SS.<o></o>
<o></o>
Marc<o></o>

Marc,

absolutely agree with you on the above point, Reitz buckle was simply listed among the other ones of Belgian manufacture, all by unknown maker....

What can I say about your list ?.........

Regards

Ric

[gingerbread]

News



I can give the following informations:

Ben (from France) did you find the buckle yourself and under what condition?

I found the buckle myself in 1992 in a farm between he submarine base of Brest and the town of Plouzane to the west.
The name of the farm is Keriars, it's about 3 km to the west from the submarine base (you can find the farm on geoportail.fr).

The body of the buckle looks steel with gold plating, is this correct? >>

The body of the buckle is steel with gold plating. Near a compass, the needle move!!!!

When I look at the condition of the buckle I intend to believe this is not the work of a faker. It would need a lot of work to age the gold plating like this. I’ve found a few classic gold steel buckles in the same condition. Of course, having the buckle in my hands would be ideal for a definite opinion. I just go by my personal experience of collecting buckles for 30 years and having done lots of digging myself in the past.>>

I can confirm that it's not the work of a faker. If you want i can send you the buckle to make a good expert's report


Now, i send you new pictures:







Regards
Ben