03
-
Last edited by David North; 09-10-2006, 09:35 AM. -
-
-
-
It is a cast copy and has all signs of casting:
1) another size
2) another weight
3) Not clear small details. e.t.c.Comment
-
Hi Sergey,Originally posted by Sergey
I'd like to know how are you able to determine size and weight of a buckle by pictures.
Anyway I agree : David's SHD buckle is not original and molded from an original one.
Regards
RicComment
-
David, I do not think you are fullly correct since the discussed buckle is a well known production, both in original or fake. Whoever knows both should be able to tell which is which without needing to hold the item. In the case of the submited specimen by Jacob there is enough specifics attached to reproduced 36/40’s without the need of anything else to call it what it is : reproduction. Of course, one needs to find details specific to fake 36/40’s since such details would be different on fake 822/37’s which in turn would be both different to details of fake 155/39’s, etc … There is nothing better than a photo for such inquiry since many of those details are not visible when the buckle is in your hand (too small for common human eyes). But since digital imaging acts like a huge magnificent glass, trained observation could be, in some case, even better than manipulation. In fact the key is to find the detail which tells you it is a fake, and not the lack of it .
On the other end, the so called fake you submitted intrigues me. I have problem to call it a fake right away. There is so far nothing which could bring (to me) the evidence it is a reproduction. Indeed I would need more photos to see what I am looking for, but only based on those photos I cannot call it a fake.
CZ Rep., Russia and Ukraine did produce earlier reproductions. Each country production had its own specifics. I doubt Hungaria is producing by now the SS EM’s but it does for the Officer’s 36/40’s. As an important note, Hungarian Officer 36/40’s are not cast from original. Die or mold was fully created for them and quality is above any EM’s. So at least those could be die struck.
Any technic has its advantage and its pitfall. Knowing those pitfalls could help to bring a clue. When there is a clue there is further examination which could lead to much more until the final evidence (one way or the other). So knowing technics is the only way to know its pitfalls.
Talking about casts, and to be very exact, difference between an original EM 36/40 and its reproduction is exactly 0.072 inch (US) in length. It is still more than one sixteenth of an US inch! Not al all negligible but indeed hard to see from a photo even if still possible depending of what is shown. But one has to be carefull! When compairing sizes, one needs to compare the EXACT same buckles!! Example a 36/40 Type 2 (like the ones discussed in this thread) should only be compared to another 36/40 Type 2. If not comparison is not valid.
No matter what, a good digital caliper cost now here in Canada about $59 CND. Speaking for SS EM buckles (and SS EM buckles only) it is very hard (if not impossible) to find an original SS EM aluminum buckle which is smaller than 64 millimeters. On the other end it is also very hard (if not impossible) to find a fake SS EM aluminum buckle longer than 63 millimeters! So a minimal investment and a basic behavior to prevent himself buying any SS EM aluminum buckle which is smaller than 64 millimeters will save a lot of money and psychological emotion.Jean Pierre Redeuilh
All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiriesComment
-
SHD Buckle
Originally posted by b.collector
I think could be interesting to compare David's SHD buckle with another one from my collection, IMO original. As Jean Pierre has rightly said :
"There is nothing better than a photo for such inquiry since many of those details are not visible when the buckle is in your hand (too small for common human eyes). But since digital imaging acts like a huge magnificent glass, trained observation could be, in some case, even better than manipulation. In fact the key is to find the detail which tells you it is a fake, and not the lack of it ."
I only hope the quality of my pics is up to the level requested.
Regards
RicComment
-
SHD alu buckle
Back sideComment
-
Ric, I had exactly the same buckle like shown here and fortunately still can determine identity the buckle on the photo and buckle which I handle.Originally posted by b.collectorLast edited by Sergey; 01-18-2006, 12:32 AM.Comment
-
Jacob's buckle
Hello Jacob,
How much is the length of your buckle, less than 63 mm or more than 64 mm?
I'm interested to know because of Jean Pierre's last statement.
Is it possible that it is as simple as that?
The faker are able to reproduce all the motto design but NOT the length of the buckle ?!Comment
-
Everything is reduced due to casting process, not only length!! Here are datas I published in early 2001 comparing original 36/40's versus fake cast 36/40's and showing this reduction:Originally posted by helmutderpa
Original length: 64.76 mm Fake length: 62.94 mm
Original Eagle wingspan (tip to tip): 53.45 mm Fake: 52.23 mm
Original width (external): 48.34 mm Fake: 46.82 mm
Original emblem (top eagle's head to bottom of rope): 43.95 mm Fake: 41.53 mm
So far I did not record eagle's eye size difference
The above sizes for the fake do apply to the Generation 2 produced in CZ Rep. The Ukrainian variant is even smaller.
So, indeed, it is as simple as that: take lenght measurement. If it is smaller than 64 you will find all other measurements shrinked as well.Jean Pierre Redeuilh
All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiriesComment
-
Hi JP,Originally posted by Jean Pierre RedeuilhEverything is reduced due to casting process, not only length!! Here are datas I published in early 2001 comparing original 36/40's versus fake cast 36/40's and showing this reduction:
Original length: 64.76 mm Fake length: 62.94 mm
Original Eagle wingspan (tip to tip): 53.45 mm Fake: 52.23 mm
Original width (external): 48.34 mm Fake: 46.82 mm
Original emblem (top eagle's head to bottom of rope): 43.95 mm Fake: 41.53 mm
So far I did not record eagle's eye size difference
The above sizes for the fake do apply to the Generation 2 produced in CZ Rep. The Ukrainian variant is even smaller.
So, indeed, it is as simple as that: take lenght measurement. If it is smaller than 64 you will find all other measurements shrinked as well.
although from 2005 you lost interest in collecting, fortunately for us you still have interest in teaching and research......about SS only of course
RicComment
-
You are indeed correct: I lost interest to seek SS buckles to buy for my collection (or let's call it "in collecting"). But does not mean I lost my interest in research which was in fact the main reason why I was keeping so many SS buckles. I still have my collection unaltered and am adding new pieces from time to time but I am no longer seeking those. Photos and documents are enough for many things.Originally posted by b.collectorHi JP,
although from 2005 you lost interest in collecting, fortunately for us you still have interest in teaching and research......about SS only of course
RicJean Pierre Redeuilh
All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiriesComment
-
JP...did you publish similar results for 822 buckles?Comment
Comment