Interesting DJ and HJ belt buckles.

[Mr Piter]

hello

I want to show You 2 new buckles in my collection.

These are very interesting items :

DJ with rare maker mark R.THIEL - DANZIG

[Kurt Doench]

Hello Mr Piter,

Very interesting buckles indeed. Can you tell us something about provenance? Were these, perhaps, dug out by yourself?

Regards, Karl

[David North]

As Karl has so rightly confirmed - very interesting buckles.

RZM M4/112 (GZM ??) as Rudolf Reich of Danzig and the one before (RZM M4/111) - Robert Thiel of again, Danzig !!

Not only are the markings very, very unusual, however the buckles by design and construction are similarly so.

Like Karl, I would like a little background information before wading in here.

Regards,

David

[Mr Piter]

Hello

These buckles are 100% originals , my friend dug them out near city of GDAŃSK <DANZIG> in a place where german army and civilinas where traped by russian army ... there were a lot of items - badges,buckles, etc ...

I wanted to show it because these are very RARE,,,

best regards
Mr Piter

[Chad Williams]

Mr. Piter
Hello, I dont mean to offend, and my thoughts are purely my opinion, but I do not think that either of these buckles are pre 1945. Both of these buckles have traits which would make them very questionable at best. I am making my opinion based upon owning and having owned many hundreds of HJ/DJ buckles. The markings on the buckles are but one characteristic which leads me to believe these are post war made buckles that have been aged. Chad

[Wickie]

Mr Piter,

would it be possible to see a better shot of the HJ buckle (just the front)?

Thanks!

Christian

[David North]

It is a really terrible dilemma when a forum member makes a clear and unambiguous statement about the source of a buckle or buckles, only to have the declaration queried and questioned. A tad infra dig perhaps.

I wonder though if these buckles were actually found on site and perhaps instead, they have been passed on with an urban myth attached to them.

I am extremely uneasy about this brace of buckles, although they display such unusual and bizarre features, that there is the very slim possibility, that they could be period.

I think not though.

The DJ has to parts of the box, has a slight stippling or orange peel effect, often associated with casting and not at all usual for a stamped section. The Sig-Rune design is now well documented, however not with the soft and slightly rounded profile to the rune per se. Finally, the mark by the known maker, seems to be a variation of that found on leather tongues.

The HJ is potentially an extremely rare and highly desirable buckle. I too would like to see a direct image of the roundel, as I am a trifle nervous in connection what could be a light detail stamping and a raw outer edge. The box is an SA type and perfectly fine, although the solder spots are either light or missing. This however is characteristic of some very early NS conversions (using Imperial and Weimar) boxes and where the roundel is silver soldered directly on, without a full utilisation of the two spots. A possible method of attaching, however very unusual for the theoretical chronological placing of this buckle. I do not like the wear pattern to the rear and in particular, the reverse of the box when compared to the pin shroud. Why are there distinct rust lumps at each end of the pin? Finally, the GZM mark (Gau ZM?) and which has discussed many times on the forum. I have seen GZM marks before (SS of course), although never with the support and dignity of a M4 code and with all due respect, I think that this is a pure fantasy.

Extremely interesting buckles and toward which I and perhaps others, would dearly love to support, however I really think that this odd couple are very clever fakes.

I hope that I am totally wrong though.

Regards,

David

[Mr Piter]

Hello All !

Thats very sad You want to make me feel like a unserious collector.
I didnt imagine the source of that buckles, I was dug there a lot and found other items. That 2 buckles were dug out by my friend who sold them to me about two weeks ago !!!

I wanted to show You a very rare items and now it seems that nobody belive me that these are originals!!

I will add more Photos --- all the buckles are ground dug examples from the same area that HJ and Dj were found -- there is no copy !!! !!!

best regards
Mr Piter

[Blaz]

.

[Blaz]

Dear Chad and David ,

From those pictures I very like the sort of corrosion procces on the HJ buckle and I have a good feelings on that one. Regarding GZM markings, as we know it's very controversial subject not cleared yet.

Regards ,
Blazej

[Mr Piter]

Witam Mr. Piter ,

Bardzo ciekawe klamry. Zainteresowała mnie ta klmara HJ sygnowana GZM. Po rodzaju korozji jestem przekonany, że ta klamra HJ jest oryginalna. Jesli chodzi o sygnatury GZM, są one bardzo kontrowersyjne na tym forum. Czesc expertów uwaza ze nie bylo takich sygnatur na oryginalnych klamrach, a czesc uwaza ze byly. Jesli sygnatury na Panskiej klamrze są oryginalne to jest to duzy krok do przodu jesli chodzi o wiedzę w temacie klamer.

Pozdrawiam ,
Blazej

Witam Kolege Błażeja

Ta sa 100% oryginały były wykopane na sobieszewie pare lat temu, dziwie sie ze oni nie mogą tego zrozumieć ,,, uwazaja ze jesli czegos nie mieli w kolekcji lub w rekach to jest to nieoryginalne ..

pozdrowienia z gdańska
Piotr

[David North]

Piotr

Unfortunately, I now think that this thread is "dead" and to be perfectly honest, I am quite staggered toward the very limited and restricted response and discussion here, when bearing in mind the popularity (or so I thought), of all things DJ and HJ.

Anyway, so be it, although I just wanted to add as a post script and hopefully non patronising reminder, that the forum does of course and thank goodness, provide an open and free discussion facility. Just because there is a subjective suggestion that the buckles that you so kindly displayed may be post 1945 in origin, it does not devalue your integrity and worth as a collector or indeed, how you are regarded by fellow forum members.

I was just a tad surprised that you possibly suggested this and please accept my apologies if I have caused any personal offence.

I have only given my opinion - no more and no less.

Regards,

David

[Kurt Doench]

I'd like to chime in with David here, no one participating in this thread has questioned Mr Pieter's integrity. What has been questioned is these buckles' integrity, and I may add that my doubts have not been dispelled.

Dear Mr Pieter, we are here engaged to discuss buckles, openly and bluntly, but not persons. It would be most regrettable if you had reached a different conclusion.

I have one more remark: For many on this forum, myself obviously included, English isn't their native language. Still, it being the forum language, it's the one we commonly use. Unfortunately, and again like myself I can only assume, very few forum members have any command of Polish, so whatever information was exchanged in the two posts in that language is lost on the majority here. If, however, what was said was meant as a private communication, a PM might more properly have been used?

Kind regards, Karl

[Mr Piter]

HELLO

ok there is no problem, i like belt buckles forum and i think that You are very good specialists in topic of buckles --

we can close the topic of that 2 buckles ---


best regards
Mr Piter

[Marc verstraete]

Where are the pictures???
Marc