MAX show RARE finds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chad Williams]

Hello Gents
I have just returned home from a week on the east coast visiting family and going to the MAX show..I want to share with you 3 of the 10 new HJ/DJ buckles I picked up at the show that will be going into my collection. I am sharing these 3 in particular because of their rarity...I hope you enjoy them and all comments are welcome and appreciated..thanks Chad
the first buckle is a DIE STRUCK ZINC buckle marked M4/118

[Chad Williams]

back M4/118

notice the image on the back of the buckle..also the turn over ears are not tear drops like the cast buckles...

[Chad Williams]

maker mark M4/118

Makers mark M4/118
notice the little m above the 4...

[Chad Williams]

2 piece

next is a 2 piece Hj buckle simply marked "RZM" and thats it! I love these 2 piece buckles...I truly believe that they only exist because there were left over Hj rondels from the HJ/DJ conversion program and they wanted to use up the spares..thats it plane and simple...

[Chad Williams]

2 piece back

2 piece back

[Chad Williams]

2 piece mark

2 piece mark

[Chad Williams]

finally...here is a very unusual HJ buckle as it is pebbled on the reverse..it has most likely been made at the factory from a pebbled solid nickel Weimar blank planchet...it also has an older style brazed prong which is brazed directly to the sleeve....

[Chad Williams]

pebbled Hj back

pebbled Hj back

[Chad Williams]

close up pebbling

close up pebbling

[Peter H.]

hello chad,
very nice buckel
how many hj buckles do you have now in your collection?
greetings peter

[Don Scowen]

Some interesting variants you found there Chad

Thanks for sharing them with us.

Cheers
Don

[Chad Williams]

Peter

My youth buckle collection is around 165 buckles..Chad

[David North]

Well Chad, an interesting trio of buckles by any definition.

The "die stamped" zinc by Redo is fascinating and quite simply, I have never seen anything like it before. Great obverse and reverse detail, however as you say, the buckle "ears" are quite distinct and different from what we would expect from the more common, injected moulded zinc HJ's. An unusual presentation of the M4 also and a very unusual and a very rare buckle.

The "pebbled" buckle is something of a revelation also. As you suggest, probably starting life as Weimar period "blank" that has been set inside out, in order to facilitate the HJ tool press. Highly unusual and again, like the Redo HJ, a very rare buckle. Do you have any clues by the eagle design, who the maker was ?

Anyway, the two piece HJ.

I really hate to say this Chad, however I think that this buckle is as fake as a fake could be.

No real problems with the roundel, the box and the claw attachment, although there are two quite specific features that have made myself somewhat nervous. I am always on guard with split pin attachments and the one that your HJ displays, is a classic for the fake SA's. Irregular and sharp ends to the splayed pin, instead of the anticipated and quite horizontal type with straight cut tips. The solder application is messy and clumsy and has been dropped on the splayed pins, rather than being evenly spread. The real potential problem however is that randomly applied, under sized and poor detailed RZM stamp. Again, seen on the numerous fake SA's which lurk on the various auction sites.

Just an opinion Chad, although again, I think that this HJ is a fake.

I will try and post some of the fake SA's with similar characteristics, in order that a comparison can be made.

Regards,

David

[Chad Williams]

David...

yes please post some of the fake SA buckles for comparison...in regards to the zinc buckle I posted....in Nash's book he speaks of a die struck zinc HJ but shows no photos of any..also we know that they struck rodels from zinc whichwere used for 2 piece army and luft buckles ..these are known..I showed this buckle as well to Marc at the Max show and he said he had an example of a like buckle in his collection also..I was very lucky to find these at the show, and I didnt pay any more for any of these than I would have expected to pay for any normal HJ...so as far as the dealers were concerned on these 3 buckles, they were just another HJ... lucky for me!!! I did quite well at the show picking up a total of 11 buckles that were new addditions to my collection and I picked up another 10 or so as duplicates..far better than I had expected to do ... thanks..Chad

Well Chad, an interesting trio of buckles by any definition.

The "die stamped" zinc by Redo is fascinating and quite simply, I have never seen anything like it before. Great obverse and reverse detail, however as you say, the buckle "ears" are quite distinct and different from what we would expect from the more common, injected moulded zinc HJ's. An unusual presentation of the M4 also and a very unusual and a very rare buckle.

The "pebbled" buckle is something of a revelation also. As you suggest, probably starting life as Weimar period "blank" that has been set inside out, in order to facilitate the HJ tool press. Highly unusual and again, like the Redo HJ, a very rare buckle. Do you have any clues by the eagle design, who the maker was ?

Anyway, the two piece HJ.

I really hate to say this Chad, however I think that this buckle is as fake as a fake could be.

No real problems with the roundel, the box and the claw attachment, although there are two quite specific features that have made myself somewhat nervous. I am always on guard with split pin attachments and the one that your HJ displays, is a classic for the fake SA's. Irregular and sharp ends to the splayed pin, instead of the anticipated and quite horizontal type with straight cut tips. The solder application is messy and clumsy and has been dropped on the splayed pins, rather than being evenly spread. The real potential problem however is that randomly applied, under sized and poor detailed RZM stamp. Again, seen on the numerous fake SA's which lurk on the various auction sites.

Just an opinion Chad, although again, I think that this HJ is a fake.

I will try and post some of the fake SA's with similar characteristics, in order that a comparison can be made.

Regards,

David

[David North]

Chad

I think that I may have a Polizei-Koppelschloß which has a steel box and which however displays a zinc roundel.

Anyway, back to the two piece HJ.

Attached are photo merges toward obverse and reverse detail, in relation to 2 fakes SA's. As mentioned before, the roundel is attached by a split pin through the box and held, by the messy application of solder. The buckles also displaying the strangely positioned, under sized and lack of good detail, RZM mark.

We have seen on the Forum numerous SA-Koppelschloß now with clearly period applied RZM marks, although nothing like this.

I have also merged the back of your HJ with one of the fakes and there is an eerie similarity. The problem for myself is that I have never seen an original SA with a split pin attachment or, with a RZM mark, even close to the one discussed.

Just to compound the problem, I have only one "split pin" attachment buckle in my collection and which has a totally different solder application. Even this one, is a buckle that I am not 100% sure about.

Regards,

David