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Molded or stamped?!?

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    Molded or stamped?!?

    Hello all,


    Since a long time the buckle collectors discuss about the way, how buckles are produced. Especially the manufacturing of the stamped aluminum buckles like Studentenbund or Wehrmannschaften was a big problem.
    And since a well known author told in his book, that this kind of buckles are molded, the situation is not better!
    I want to tell you now my experience, and the reason, why they are definitely NOT MOLDED!

    First you must keep in mind the difference between casting and stamping.
    1. A casted buckle is nearly ready when it goes out of the mold. Of course you must put in the rivet/post sleeve. And a file is also needed. But the buckle himself is ready, you don’t need to fold it.
    2. A stamped buckle is made from a plain metal plate. After you stamp the emblem, you need to cut off the rest of the plate. And of course, the sides must be folded!

    A few months ago, I saw an unfinished aluminum Luftwaffe buckle with the typical catch. There was no hole in the catch, and the side were not folded! (Pictures will follow)
    Since this day my question changed from “are they are stamped?” to “how they are stamped?”!

    I had some conversations with other collectors, and people who worked with stamped items. We had a lot of good ideas, but nothing was 100% sure.
    One day I got the right man on the telephone. He worked in the war as steel-engraver in a factory, which also produce buckles. He worked mostly on die’s for awards & badges, but he knows also everything to produce a buckle.
    Here are his words:
    “Stamp a aluminum buckle with catch is not really tricky. You must mill a hole into the male die, that’s it. Through stamping power the aluminum grows up, and it goes also into the hole. It is good possible, that there is not enough material to form this nose(he mean the catch). In that case you must put a metal stripe or a small plate at the position where the catch is(before stamping).
    It think that some manufacturers had tricks to produce it better or faster, but the principle with the hole in the male die is always the same”


    I found a lot of other hints, but they go all to the same direction. I found NOTHING against my explanation!

    Because of that I can tell you, that all buckle which looks like the Wehrmannschaften are stamped. All buckles which are molded in the 3.Reich have a plain back.
    There is only one buckle where I can’t tell you how it is produced: the I. Model Red Cross.
    Some thing’s look molded, other stamped.
    It would be nice, if somebody can help me in that case!

    I’m always interested in information’s about the production of buckles. If somebody got documents or information’s, please post it up!!!



    Christian

    #2
    Posted for Christian
    Jean Pierre Redeuilh
    All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

    Comment


      #3
      By the way, whoever is interested by this subject HAS TO read this thread since it is not bull or hypothetical !!
      Christian IS the only person I personnaly know to have really found and talk to a surviving worker in a German factory during WWII. Buckles manufacture in aluminum was part of his job along with other items during several years and so he is a first hand witness.
      Furthermore we are very lucky Christian is freely sharing this very valuable information with us and not keeping it for some future publication !!
      Jean Pierre Redeuilh
      All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

      Comment


        #4
        buckle production

        Hello,


        Thanks for sharing this great info, altough im not a Buckle collector I like to rerad also about everything that has to do with teh collecting world and suck up as much info as possible

        So that LW buckle that you are showing is a stamped one that is not finished ! ( am I correct ? )

        Very interesting and thanks for sharing
        my collectionfield : German glider pilots


        http://users.skynet.be/lw-glider/

        Comment


          #5
          Yes, you're right. The quality is not good, so I think something was wrong was the setting of the stamping machine. The die hit not correct the plate, and I think because of that the buckle was not completed.

          Christian

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            #6
            Hi Wickie,

            Great piece of detective work! Finally we know. Keep up the good work!

            Karl

            Comment


              #7
              Wickie--

              do you realise how long we badge collectors have waited to have access to an employee that made badges? My jaw dropped when I read this post..

              My mind is reeling with questions...Is there any way at all for you to contact this friend and propose asking some questions again..this time about badge manufacturing??????

              I will be waiting with anticipation for your reply...

              Accidentally offending people on the internet since 1997

              Comment


                #8
                I have to say that I am a little surprised with the reaction on this tread, although I very much appreciate the post of Christian and I highly respect his research, especially the interview he had with the former employee of the buckle factory. I cannot believe the short memory of some of you guy’s.
                About two years ago I already proved that the buckles where not injected but stamped, I made numerous post about this subject on the SS buckle forum and on the other buckle forums. (JP can maybe look them up and post the links?) This together with pictures of unfinished buckles and the die’s to stamp the buckles.
                I posted those treads to response on the mistake in the latest book on the subject where my dies are shown.
                I have the impression that some of us have to repeat everything we have already said over and over again!
                Anyway, following is a picture of a non-finished W.H buckle that has been stamped. ( this picture and others have already been posted two years ago on the oter buckles forums)
                Marc V.
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hello Marc,

                  I do not believe anyone wants to make you feel you were not the first one to brought this information to the public, or to promote Christian as the first person bringing such evidence instead of you. But many members here are not coming from other Forums, and this question was not discussed here before and is very new for them.
                  Furthermore, if you brought the first clue, and for many the first evidence, some collectors were still questionning at least one part: how was made/affixed the catch (part of the stamping process, made separately and applied later, etc...) and no photo of any die with drilled hole for this catch had ever been pictured in books or posted in a Forum (at least that I know off).

                  What was new with Christian input is the "first hand" witness. We are now no longer guessing or assuming, but we have now proof of it. Or if you prefer we no longer have to interpret the result or part of the result, but just to follow the explanation from A to Z.

                  To your request here is your original message posted in my SS Buckle Forum. It is message #102 for members of it. Unfortunately I cannot provide a direct link since Forum access is restricted to members only even if it is a free Forum.
                  I know you posted the same message even earlier in another Forum but I cannot copy/paste it since I no longer have access to it:

                  From: "Marc Verstraete" <buckles@pandora.be>
                  Date: Mon May 21, 2001 2:02 pm
                  Subject: Alluminum buckles Proof of manifacture.

                  Hello to all,
                  In the attachment the proof that the aluminium buckles are NOT made out of
                  injected metal but stamped like I have being saying since all the time!! 1)
                  The buckle is stamped with the die 2) and the hole for the catch// hook is
                  drilled out afterwards. The die has the hole for the catch drilled out in
                  the male die.3) the buckle is folded and the prong bar is put in place.
                  The only injected metal aluminium buckles are the buckles where the back is
                  flat. This means, you can NOT see the reverse of the inset.
                  Most of the time those buckles (with flat back) are not in aluminium but in
                  heavy war metal. For example, the very rare SS 822/42, the very rare large
                  cross Red Cross, some HJ and regular Red Crosses The only known example of
                  one injected aluminium SS buckle is the one on page 214 of Angolias book in
                  the middle of the page and was probably made with the same mould as the
                  822/42.

                  Conclusion, if someone wand to sell you a fake Czechoslovakian aluminium
                  buckle (SS or other) and the explanation for the imperfections in the metal
                  is that it is because the are moulded, run away! It is not true.
                  Marc
                  Jean Pierre Redeuilh
                  All my collection of SS Buckles is for sale. Contact jpredeu@rogers.com for inquiries

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Hello JP, Christian and all,

                    My intention was not at all to claim the discovery of the method of manufacture on my name,
                    I was lucky to find one non-finished buckle 2 years ago and also the dies for the prototype buckle while Christian on his side has done the same research and also found a non-finished buckle. We where both looking for the same answers without knowing each other. I think Christian deserves the congratulation for his perseverance in looking to as much details as possible about this matter. My surprise was more to see that so many peoples are still believing in the erroneous thoughts that the buckles are injected or moulded! This despites all the previous comments and text given over the past 2 years on the subject by JP and me on 3 different buckles sites! I hope no one took my previous comment personally. I so, I apologise.
                    Marc V.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I am resurrecting this old thread to ask for advice on this RC buckle. I feel this may be an unfinished aluminum RC due to the catch not having a hole. There is a maker mark "Ges Gesch 1" in front of catch. I would like to hear what others think of this buckle.
                      Regards-
                      dan (KC)
                      Attached Files

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