Fake HJ's

[David North]

Have just seen two more fake HJ's that are new to me. Fortunately, both display the now well known roundel design, as attached.

1. stamped brass and marked under the pin shroud, A A&S GES. GESCH. RZM 17
2. stamped steel and with a grey green finish. No obvious markings however with the Aurich type crank catch

Regards,

David

[Chad Williams]

David...do you have any photos of the buckle marked with the Assman logo? the people making these repros are probably using original dies...both Aurich and M4/46 Wilhelm Schroder used this rondel design, the buckles are strikingly similar . the ones you saw, how were the prongs and the fold over ears? please see Angolia 2nd edition 28(1).15e (page 275) here is an example of a good period Aurich crank catch with your rondel that is shown...there is also another variant of this buckle where it is not marked in the diamond, but in the usual location in front of the catch...I will post some photos a litlle later Chad

[David North]

Chad

I really cannot supply you with any more useful information, other than posting an old image that I hold in connection with the rogue Assmann stampings. Previously seen on the fake steel buckles and now, fake brass buckles. Early markings of course and acceptable for a nickle silver or plated steel buckle, although ridiculous on a painted steel buckle. I have now seen these markings on fake buckles with the Aurich crank catch and the traditional, brazed C catch, although the positioning of the markings can and do vary.

The comments that you make however in connection with the roundel design are very interesting. I really thought that the roundel that I have submitted was a pure fantasy and did not correspond with any known eagle. If you look at the buckles featured in the publication that you refer to, there are differences, although perhaps appearing the same by say a casual glance. I think that the eagles head, background to the swastika and the outer curvature of the wings are slightly different.

Would certainly like to have a squint at the two roundels that you refer to.

Regards,

David

[Chad Williams]

HJ repro/original

David...here is a link to a previous thread by Marc which shows the fake and good HJ in question .http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...rk+claw...this thread has a good and a bad one pic after the next so it makes it easy to compare....notice the turn over ears at the roller bar (the difference between the two) and of course the finish differance you have allready noted which is painted versions are repros and anodized/plated are good..here are photos of my 2 different examples of M4/42 crank buckles, both are original and exhibit the traits of originals which are

1. anodized/plated finish
2. smaller non deformed turn over ear at roller bar
3. maker mark is not stamped under roller bar

the repro buckles are pretty good if you dont have an original to go side by side with it..once you do, they stand out..hopefully this will help someone not get burned...thanks for starting this thread..your threads on repros do everyone on our site a great service..thanks again..Chad (pictures to follow)

[Chad Williams]

back

back M4/42 mark in diamond

[Chad Williams]

mark

mark

[Chad Williams]

turn over ears

turn over ears

[Chad Williams]

M4/42 stamped on tongue of buckle

M4/42 stamped on tongue of buckle

[Chad Williams]

2

2

[Chad Williams]

3 mark

3 mark

[Chad Williams]

rondel detail of originals

rondel detail of originals

[David North]

Chad

Of very minor note, the previous thread that you referred to and so kindly provided the link to, was actually started by myself when these Assmann marked and fake steel HJ's, first appeared.

I know that I am being a tad Neanderthal here Chad, however I do not understand some aspects of your responses. I fully acknowledge that the distinct crank bar is a legitimate fitting by some makers and also, the eagle design that I showed on the fake steel HJ, is very similar to some specific manufacturers. I feel though and with all due respect, that the possibility that these fakes (steel and now brass), emanate from original tools and dies, is very remote.

My thoughts are that the fake HJ appears very similar to a recognised and documented style, however is in fact, quite dissimilar on very close scrutiny - thank goodness!

Regards,

David

[Chad Williams]

David...I agree with your statement...I was mainly posting originals so that someone breezing through the thread would see that not all with this crank type or rondel design (on quick inspection ) are repros....I originally thought that the repros were being made from original dies, but I must recant this statement, you are correct in the fact that although very similar, especially at a quick glance, they are different stamping dies ....thank you again for starting this thread,I am sure it will be helpful to many..Chad