Michael Wittmann and atrocities

[James Tainton]

From another site

Maybe I'm out of line here, but I think it bears mentioning that Wittmann was not regular army; he was SS. He was a devout member of the Nazi Party who committed God knows how many atrocities while engaged in counter partisan operations in the Balkans and on the Eastern Front. My point is, wanting to accurately depict Wittmann's Tiger is perfectly fine; referring to a Nazi butcher as "a real hero" is not.

was he a butcher?
(edit: the quote is not mine.)

[Cam_S]

Really questionable subject

Hello,

I personally have never heard of Micheal Wittmann ever committing any atrocites. Unless we actually know exactly what he did during his anti-partisan operations we can not call him a butcher. As a tanker, he probably did not jump out of his tank to go and execute a bunch of Partisans in cold blood (Remeber he was Waffen-SS, not part of the Einsatzgruppen, sorry spelling). He was probably needed at the front to stop the Russian enslaught. Remeber a partisan is also breaking the Law of Armed conflict by not fighting in a uniform, or as part of an offical army. Now I am not saying this is an excuse for commiting War crimes, but there are more factors than you can shake a stick at.

I am not a Nazi Sympathizer in any way and I am glad that we kicked there ass, but just because he was in the W-SS does not make him an evil man. Most of the people taken into the W-SS were the best of the best. As I stated earlier, I have never heard anything about him committing crimes, like those of Pieper and Meyer. Speaking as an Armoured soldier myself, I am amazed at his tactical brilliance on the battlefield. To his men that served under him, I am sure he was a hero.

But these are just my 2 cents and I am sure this will become a hot topic.

Cam

[Vadim K]

James,
Saying he "committed God knows how many atrocities while engaged in counter partisan operations in the Balkans and on the Eastern Front" is really not enough. I, for one, am not aware of any atrocities attributed to Wittmann. If the person who posted that is, let him provide the specifics.

Remeber he was Waffen-SS, not part of the Einsatzgruppen

You do have to remember that the entire SS was judged a criminal organization at Nuremberg, including Waffen-SS. Of course this will now rapidly become just another Waffen-SS discussion and how they were super warriors who were basically good people, just misunderstood... (and no, Cam, I dont mean your post)

To his men that served under him, I am sure he was a hero.

To the men who served under "Papa" Eicke or Dirlewanger, I am sure they were heroes too...

[James Tainton]

Thanks for your responses- and yes please everyone-I would hope we can stay on topic with your posts- it is about any known atrocities by Wittman specifically and the documented proof there of.

[Vadim K]

James, all I can say is that I have done a lot of research on Nazi war crimes and Wittmann's name never once came up.

[Scott H]

Michael Wittman

I have never heard of Michael ever committing any war crimes either. But also remember this. If a German soldier was captured by partisians, what treatment do you think they would have received? They didn't take prisoner's either. War is hell.

[Matt L]

Well, if this person, or anyone who believes this statement, wants to provide indesputable forensic evidence that would stand up in a court of law today to prove it- fine, then I'll believe it... but until then it's nothing but hot air. Conjecture without fact is useless.

Matt

[Michael Root]

As I stated earlier, I have never heard anything about him committing crimes, like those of Pieper and Meyer.

What crimes did Meyer commit? Please fill me in

[James Tainton]

What crimes did Meyer commit? Please fill me in

I would prefer you start another thread about that - I want to stay on topic here, okay thanks.

[Michael Root]

A comment like that needs to be backed with facts or must be deleted.

[fknorr]

I would prefer you startt another thread about that - I want to stay on topic here, okay thanks.

Pieper, Meyer nor Wittman to the best of my knowledge committed any attrocity.

Pieper and Meyer were "convicted" of being the officers in charge, nothing more and both were let go after cooler heads prevailed (although years down the road) .

I am not sure what your agenda is James but there are plenty of forums out there where you can bash members of the SS whose only "crimes" were wearing a certain uniform. If that is your goal, why not go there. If indeed you have some facts about Wittmann that none of us here have heard in 60 years, please let us know.

[James Tainton]

I am not sure what your agenda is James but there are plenty of forums out there where you can bash members of the SS whose only "crimes" were wearing a certain uniform. If that is your goal, why not go there. If indeed you have some facts about Wittmann that none of us here have heard in 60 years, please let us know.

You've got the wrong end of the stick here friend. If you'll look at the original post I did say that it was from another site and it is a quote. Granted I could have been clearer that the quote was not my words. I too do not condon ignorant and sloppy history.
- the accusation of atrocities perpetrated by Wittman is not mine.
I was only asking in case I had missed something. Hope that clears that up for you.
(edit: a link to the original post, unfortunately, you'll have to click on each one to read them.)
http://www.track-link.net/forum/research_ww2/8556)

[Humberto Corado]

Hello,

I have never heard about Wittmann ever commotting any war crimes too.
In my opinion they have the most brutal war in history so they have to act similarly, sometimes until of brutal way, but it was this war, was brutal.
I agree with Scott opinion about that if a German soldier was captured by partisans the treatment that they would have received was the worst.


cordial greetings

I have never heard of Michael ever committing any war crimes either. But also remember this. If a German soldier was captured by partisians, what treatment do you think they would have received? They didn't take prisoner's either. War is hell.

[fknorr]

We have to be careful where we look for information online and on some of these forums. Several are run and/or moderated by folks whose sole purpose in life is to blame the Germans (as a whole) for crimes committed by a relatively small number of Germans (proportionaly) and probably more foriegners under German command and/or colaborators to varying degrees.

Just because a person wore runes on his collar, it does not maake him a murderer...on most forums online though, it is guily until proven innocent (and you'll never be able to give these clowns enough facts to change their minds.)

[TMurray]

perhaps this delusional individual believes that Wittman's foray in the village of Villers-Bocage was an 'atrocity' in terms of the casualities inflicted??? I have NEVER heard of Michael Wittman being linked to atrocities, and by atrocities I am assuming he means either: 1). pre-meditated killing of innocent civilians or 2). the murder of unarmed POWs or the like. Absolute rubbish!!