infantry anti-tank weapons part 2

[panzerboy39]

Hello all, now that the first infantry AT weapons thread has run it course (panzerfaust/panzershreck being the winners, PIAT being the worst) , its time for the logical followup. What was the most effective close combat infantry AT weapon system? I profess to be somewhat less schooled on this subject, with many different weapon designs from all corners of the globe so please feel free to add, deride, subtract or whatever from the basic list given here:

1-German teller mine (heavy, powerful) (is this the round, flat one?)
2-German magnetic mine (magnetic throw & forget, powerful, cumbersome) (is this the pointy shaped thing with the three magnets on the bottom?)
3-Russian Molotov (cheap, dangerous to user, dubious effectiveness)
4-Allied sticky mine - now this ones a mystery, who made it? is it a specific model or was it field rigged by the grunts? (good at immobilization)
5-Japanese Bangolore Torpedo - You know, the lance-like stick bomb used by the suicide AT squad (cheap, had to die to use it)
6-German grenade bundle - (fairly cheap, cumbersome, limited effectiveness)
7-Russian dog mine - (cheap, hard to train, rather stupid concept, mans best friend used as cannon fodder, being a dog lover, my least FAV!!!)
8.....what have I missed? (Siberian tiger mine perhaps, or homing pidgeon guided bomb meant to fly into turret hatches, anything!)

now for my vote: Japanese torpedo thing all the way! My personal fav as, whether it worked or not, it did not matter cuz you were dead. Brilliant!

panzers forward!

panzerboy39

[Matt L]

1-German teller mine (heavy, powerful) (is this the round, flat one?)

Yes- the most common was the T.Mi. 42. Heavy, but quite effective. I have a copy of IHF's "Männer gegen Panzer", a training film for the Infanterie showing various methods of engaging tanks. Several times Tellerminen are used- all one had to do was screw in a pull fuze, set the mine on the tracks, or under the rear of the turret and pull...

One of the myriad of D-Day shows on recently had an ordnance expert demonstrate the power of the Tellermine with a live reproduction- on a beach with a small car. Blew it to SMITHEREENS. A big hole was all that was left, and bits of the car, including the engine, were tens of meters away after the detonation.

2-German magnetic mine (magnetic throw & forget, powerful, cumbersome) (is this the pointy shaped thing with the three magnets on the bottom?)

Yes again, although I wouldn't say they were cumbersome. Rather compact, especially in comparison to a Tellermine, and really its only drawback was the same as that of the Tellermine- one had to get right up to the target tank and place the mine. The Hafthohlladung (magnetic mine) was quite effective- the 3,5kg version being just a Panzerfaust head with magnets instead of the blunt nose- so it could penetrate something like 20cm of armor.

3-Russian Molotov (cheap, dangerous to user, dubious effectiveness)

Scary to use, but extremely simple and it could be effective if the burning fuel dripped down into a tank's engine compartment. Better than the mines in that it could be thrown from a short distance, so one didn't have to get right up to the tank- but still... A book I have also shows a field improvisation where a Stielhandgranate 24 is attached to a 20L fuel can. A really BIG Molotov cocktail. You'd pretty much have to drop it on a target because 20L of gasoline isn't light...

4-Allied sticky mine - now this ones a mystery, who made it? is it a specific model or was it field rigged by the grunts? (good at immobilization)

I've never heard of it actually being used- it's more of a field improvisation, yes? It wouldn't be terribly effective at anything but damaging tracks and wheels. And again, one has to get right up to the tank...

5-Japanese Bangolore Torpedo - You know, the lance-like stick bomb used by the suicide AT squad (cheap, had to die to use it)

The Bangelore Torpedo is used to cut barbed wire or other obstacles primarily, isn't it? And if they were suicide squads, why would they use an extendable weapon intended to be deployed from cover? A human bomb seems to be more effective... just run up to the tank and BOOM. Not my first choice

6-German grenade bundle - (fairly cheap, cumbersome, limited effectiveness)

Again just good for tracks and wheels. Very cheap, yes, cumbersome, somewhat- effective, sure- if you could land it in the right place.

7-Russian dog mine - (cheap, hard to train, rather stupid concept, mans best friend used as cannon fodder, being a dog lover, my least FAV!!!)

No more stupid than the incendiary bats or other 'biological weapons' Again, I've never read of one actually being used. I've heard of them, seen a supposed photograph, but no German account of them in action. It sounds like a loser of an idea...

8.....what have I missed? (Siberian tiger mine perhaps, or homing pidgeon guided bomb meant to fly into turret hatches, anything!)

I've been told that the Soviets and the Western Allies had magnetic mines too, but they weren't common- and Zimmerit should have decreased their effectiveness somewhat. Actually, since the use of Zimmerit was discontinued later in the war, they couldn't have been common threats...

There's the German winged shaped-charge throw grenade... run near the tank, chuck the grenade up and hope it comes down on top. Probably damn difficult to use.

The Germans had 2 other methods of engaging tanks you didn't mention- both involved blinding the gunner or driver. Two Nebelhandgranate tied together at the base with a short piece of cord- chuck it at a tank such that it lands on the barrel of the gun near the mantlet. The grenades hang over each side and smoke the observation ports. Then there were the glass chemical 'grenades' the BK1H and BK2H. A glass tube inside a glass shell- the inner and outer portions contained two different chemicals, which, when mixed (as the glass shatters upon impact), created a thick irritant fog. This both blinded by covering the observation ports, and irritated (eyes, throat) as the chemicals entered the tank. Gotta have good aim to use them and you've got to be really careful you don't dive for cover and land on one

I'd choose the Hafthohlladung and Tellermines myself- they're no less dangerous to use than anything else, but they were VERY effective.

Matt

[TMurray]

lol..I like the concept of the homing pigeon that flys down an open hatch!!

[Stirling]

I might be able to help a bit...

When it comes to japanese suicide shinanigans in the anti-tank role, I don't know about the bangalore torpedo or what ever, how ever I have read about the japs hidding in a small fox hole with a aero bomb (i.e. what planes drop) and a brick. the tank drives over or near you and BOOM! whack the bomb and say sayonara! I have no idea of it effectiveness over this or how common it was but if bomb craters got tigers stuck in normandy who knows?

as for russian A/T bomb dogs (trust the ruskkies to think this up ) this is featured in some detail in Janusz Piekaliewicz's book "Tank war" there is even a picture of one (a stuffed one ) they wore a harness with a charge on either side and a detonater sticking out the top. they were trained to get used to the noise of battle and to crawl under tanks (enticed by meat). they were grey sheperds and dobbermans and called "destroyers" by the soviets. sadly in real battle the dogs would rather be near humans than tanks and the germans just shot them. the "destroyer" battalion numbered about 500, the book mentions one being "captured" by the germans and kept as a divisional mascot!

woof woof BOOM!
Stirling

[Adrian Stevenson]

Sticky Bomb

Hi Guys, I can help re the sticky bomb. Although this type of thing was improvised in the field, the British made a production version, the No.74 Grenade. See here for a photo:

http://members.shaw.ca/dwlynn/british/britid.htm

The grenade worked by pulling a securing pin which caused the globe shaped cover to fall away exposing the sticky part. The grenade was then thrown at the vehicle. An original example can be seen in the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek, Holland. This is a rare item and I am told they are rather unstable

In our re-enactment group, "2nd Guards Rifle Div", one of the lads used to dress his dog "Oscar" as a mine dog. He built him a jacket and fake explosive charge. He used to love to wear it! Oscar has now retired as he is getting on. If Chris has a photo I will try and get a copy and post it here.


Cheers, Ade.

[cbo]

Hi Guys, I can help re the sticky bomb. Although this type of thing was improvised in the field, the British made a production version, the No.74 Grenade. See here for a photo:

http://members.shaw.ca/dwlynn/british/britid.htm

The grenade worked by pulling a securing pin which caused the globe shaped cover to fall away exposing the sticky part. The grenade was then thrown at the vehicle. An original example can be seen in the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek, Holland. This is a rare item and I am told they are rather unstable

I think it was Ian Hogg who made the comment that the No. 74 was not that popular because it tended to stick to the user if he was not very carefull when unpacking and throwing it.

Love to see that dog, Ade

[Marc Garlasco]

Dog mine is also detailed in Bidermann's "In Deadly Combat." He said the Russians loved those things. Would feed dogs under their tanks, so when they let them go and a dog saw a German tank it was a Pavlovian pooch-bomb!

[panzerboy39]

japanese AT Lance.

The Bangelore Torpedo is used to cut barbed wire or other obstacles primarily, isn't it? And if they were suicide squads, why would they use an extendable weapon intended to be deployed from cover? A human bomb seems to be more effective... just run up to the tank and BOOM. Not my first choice

The weapon in question here is some type of lance bomb (it's not a bangalore just a word I used for lack of a better phrase) I'm can't remember where i learned of this weapon (ASL perhaps?) What I do remember (vaguely) was that it was some type of shape-charge attached to a simple wooden pole which detonated as the poor sap plunged it into the side/rear/turret of the tank. As for the effect of suicide non-shaped charge bomber on a sherman or stuart, very poor I would imagine, unless detonated underneath the tank.



No more stupid than the incendiary bats or other 'biological weapons' Again, I've never read of one actually being used. I've heard of them, seen a supposed photograph, but no German account of them in action. It sounds like a loser of an idea...

I'm just reading "Hitler moves east - 1941-43" by Paul Carell which has an interesting account of the first encounter by the German Panzertruppe by the 'ingenious' mine dogs. A single panzer was supposedly knocked out, but thereafter all dogs, mined or no, were shot on sight.

Thank you for all the info Matt!

panzers forward!

panzerboy39

[Matt L]

I might be able to help a bit...

When it comes to japanese suicide shinanigans in the anti-tank role, I don't know about the bangalore torpedo or what ever, how ever I have read about the japs hidding in a small fox hole with a aero bomb (i.e. what planes drop) and a brick. the tank drives over or near you and BOOM! whack the bomb and say sayonara! I have no idea of it effectiveness over this or how common it was but if bomb craters got tigers stuck in normandy who knows?

This sounds like a bit of a legend- fuzes don't respond to heavy whacks unless they're seriously improvised (i.e., not the regular fuze). Not only that, but they'd be no better than mines- you'd have to put them in JUST the right spot where enemy tanks would drive over them. I could see this maybe as a last-ditch defense for an airfield or something that was in imminent danger of being overrun...

as for russian A/T bomb dogs (trust the ruskkies to think this up ) this is featured in some detail in Janusz Piekaliewicz's book "Tank war" there is even a picture of one (a stuffed one ) they wore a harness with a charge on either side and a detonater sticking out the top. they were trained to get used to the noise of battle and to crawl under tanks (enticed by meat). they were grey sheperds and dobbermans and called "destroyers" by the soviets. sadly in real battle the dogs would rather be near humans than tanks and the germans just shot them. the "destroyer" battalion numbered about 500, the book mentions one being "captured" by the germans and kept as a divisional mascot!

woof woof BOOM!
Stirling

The probably long training time that would be necessary to get a dog used to the noise and have even the SLIGHTEST desire to crawl under a tank- even if it wasn't driving- sure makes this idea about as harebrained as you can get. Actually the one picture I have seen that was supposed to be one of these dogs was one that had been shot- but it wasn't exactly recognizable, so I didn't take it too seriously. I do love the idea of the Germans keeping one as a mascot

Matt