German Armoured Cars with dual drive positions?

[panzerboy39]

I was just playing my favourite computer game 'combat mission' and read something interesting about german armoured cars. Some designs (specifically the sdkfz 232 8-rad) had a dual-driver position so it could get out of trouble as quickly as it got in. Two questions about this:

1- did the vehicles have two drivers in position (abviously this does'nt make sense as the rear driver would be rather use-less in most situations) or would another crewman jump into the vacant 'rear-driver' position.

2- how did the rear-driver position work? Was it identical to the front position or was it just a simple contraption for use in emergency situations (since driving forward is the norm for most vehicles)

It was the first time I had heard about this (I'm guilty of paying more attention the the 'sexy' panzers than the cars. Although the Puma was pretty cool!)

PS - On a sidenote, was does 'Sonderkraftfarzeug' mean in english? Also 'panzerspahwagon'? xkuzze the speeling!

panzers forward!

panzerboy39

[cbo]

I was just playing my favourite computer game 'combat mission' and read something interesting about german armoured cars. Some designs (specifically the sdkfz 232 8-rad) had a dual-driver position so it could get out of trouble as quickly as it got in.

Many armoured cars of the period had a reverse drives positions. I know the French Panhard AMD 178 had it as did the Swedish M36 and M39.

Two questions about this:

1- did the vehicles have two drivers in position (abviously this does'nt make sense as the rear driver would be rather use-less in most situations) or would another crewman jump into the vacant 'rear-driver' position.

I think another crewman. In most cases, it would very time consuming for the driver to move to the alternative position and the rear driving position was primarily there in order to get the vehicle out of harms way fast - a short and fast dash until the vehicle could be turned safely.

2- how did the rear-driver position work? Was it identical to the front position or was it just a simple contraption for use in emergency situations (since driving forward is the norm for most vehicles)

AFAIK, they were usually fully equipped stations as you can see in this drawing of a German 8-rad chassis.



Source: http://mythicpanzers.jexiste.fr/File...d/8-rad_01.htm (includes the legendst to the above drawing.)

PS - On a sidenote, was does 'Sonderkraftfarzeug' mean in english? Also 'panzerspahwagon'? xkuzze the speeling!

Sonderkraftfahrzeug:
Sonder - special
Kraft - power (i.e. powerdriven; it has a motor)
Fahrzeug - vehicle

~ special motor vehicle

Panzerspähwagen:
Panzer - armour
Späh - spähen = looking closely, carefully, from a hiding -> scouting, conducting reconnaisance
Wagen - car

~ armoured reconnaissance vehicle.

[Steve Manns]

Many British armoured cars also had this feature. I think the idea was that if the car was going into a particularly dangerous situation, the rear position would be occupied before the move was made (probably by the gunner because he would be the nearest), then vacated when a safer place was reached. ....... I could, of course, be totally wrong

[Stirling]

The SdKfz 231 had 4 crew members, one of which I think sat in the rearward facing seat and was the radio operator/2nd driver as required. I belive it also had 4 forward and 3 reverse gears so it was quick in both directions

The SdKfz 234/2 Puma is hands down the coolest looking wheeled military vehicle ever!
So you hit the nail on the head occasionally panzerboy

Someone put up a puma pic Please!
Stirling

[cbo]

The SdKfz 231 had 4 crew members, one of which I think sat in the rearward facing seat and was the radio operator/2nd driver as required. I belive it also had 4 forward and 3 reverse gears so it was quick in both directions

I've not been able to find any good description of the gearbox but as I understand it (from comparing several sources), the SdKfz 234 had a three-speed gear box. But it also had a high-low selector making it effectively 6 speeds. And it had another selector which changed the direction of the output, giving it 6 speeds in reverse as well.

If anyone have a good description of the system, I'd be interested!

Someone put up a puma pic Please!
Stirling

Your wish is my command


Source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...ht=puma#468009

[Laurence Strong]

Hi All, Here's a couple of photo's

[Laurence Strong]

1 more, Hope these help

[Stirling]

Aargh! please god nooo! those poor puma's, blown upside down and destroyed.
how can you be so cruel claus! (is that what I get for working from memory and getting the gears so completly wrong?)
Did an air attack cause that? or a heavy artillery strke perhaps?

Cool pics all the same everyone
Stirling

[cbo]

Aargh! please god nooo! those poor puma's, blown upside down and destroyed.
how can you be so cruel claus! (is that what I get for working from memory and getting the gears so completly wrong?)

That is my evil streak

Did an air attack cause that? or a heavy artillery strke perhaps?

I think the explanation is perhaps less dramatic. It could be that:

A: The vehicles gave up the ghost for some reason and the Germans tipped them over to get the wheels as they are all missing. Many wrecks in Normandy lost their wheels, probably because the rubber-starved German Army could make good use of the tires.

B: Allied engineers have flipped the vehicles over to clear the road. Several spectacular wrecks often attributed to the RAF/USAAF have turned out to be vehicles that was left on the road by the Germans for one reason or the other. Then allied sappers used explosives to flip them off the road or ARVs pushed them off.

[panzerboy39]

Sometimes?

Somestimes? I would like to think I hit the nail on the head most times, but that is somewhat biased I'm sure! My opinion to me is (almost) always right! But seriously, the Puma is really a great armoured car, sleek, fast & hard hitting! Definatly my Fav of the war!

panzers forward!

panzerboy39

[panzerboy39]

Sherlock Holmes to the rescue!!!

OK, I have reviewed the evidence and here is my conclusion, writing pad ready Dr Watson? I can understand one Puma breaking down and being scrapped by the crews but two in the same circumstance? The tires also have only the rubber removed as the bolts are still on the wheels. The germans would'nt remove the tires, take off the rubber and bolt them back on would they? Also, unless the Kraut's had a ride, I can't really envision the crew strolling down the road rolling sixteen solid rubber tires, happy in the belief they were helping the war effort by saving precious rubber for recylcing? (Maybe they were fanatic Hitler Youth Aufklarung!) Allied engineers would'nt remove tires from the vehicles either, just move them and continue. Also, an engineer bulldozer would just push them off to the side not flip them like some college fraternity prank! It is also plausible that the bulldozer would tip the puma on its side by accident while pushing it, but rolling it on its top? It looks like there is fire damage on the rear of the foremost Puma (where the engine is) and on the grass around it (burning fuel) which leads me to believe that it suffered some type of firepower trauma (thus burning the wheels off). It was not unusual for AFV's to be tossed around by large artillery or aircraft bombs. This is not such a far-fetched scenario, especially since both are flipped in different, odd angles. It would be impossible to flip a Puma onto its top for a crew, let alone on its side. The Puma 234/2 weighed about 11.5 tons. Crews would much rather burn the vehicle than flip them I am sure! I think the sexy, sexy bomb blast/combat scenarios are more plausible than we think. The only problem is there is no evidence of a bomb crater in the photo anywhere, so hmmm? Also, if the tires burned, there would be more fire/ melted rubber evidence on the pumas. Do you really think engineers would blast them off the road?

panzers forward!

panzerboy39

[cbo]

OK, I have reviewed the evidence and here is my conclusion, writing pad ready Dr Watson? I can understand one Puma breaking down and being scrapped by the crews but two in the same circumstance? The tires also have only the rubber removed as the bolts are still on the wheels. The germans would'nt remove the tires, take off the rubber and bolt them back on would they?

Good point. Those occasions I've seen of removed rubber, the whole wheel is missing. Mayb some HJ-kid was just really good with a tire-iron

It was not unusual for AFV's to be tossed around by large artillery or aircraft bombs. This is not such a far-fetched scenario, especially since both are flipped in different, odd angles. It would be impossible to flip a Puma onto its top for a crew, let alone on its side. The Puma 234/2 weighed about 11.5 tons. Crews would much rather burn the vehicle than flip them I am sure! I think the sexy, sexy bomb blast/combat scenarios are more plausible than we think. The only problem is there is no evidence of a bomb crater in the photo anywhere, so hmmm? Also, if the tires burned, there would be more fire/ melted rubber evidence on the pumas. Do you really think engineers would blast them off the road?

They did it with Panthers, so why not with Pumas? And that would not leave much of a crater, as the explosives would be on the ground. Those tanks I've seen pictured, hit by bombs or heavy artillery are usually either covered in dirt, parked in deep holes or completely obliterated by direct hits. They are also usually sitting in a debris field with craters, broken trees and smashed buildings. This site does not really look like it was hit by artillery or bombs.

So I think I'll stick with the idea that they fell prey to a clean-up job of one sort or the other, perhaps after being damaged and burnt. There is really no way of saying if they were pushed off by a dozer, an ARV with a crane or whatever.

[panzerboy39]

Yes, massive air/artillery strike is out!

Yes, I agree Claus. There is no evidence of any large bomb blast anywhere nor corressponding debris to indicate a vehicle-flipping detonation. I've seen the pictures of flipped panthers at Kursk and you could certainly tell how they were destroyed!!! (Can you say Katyushka?) I'm going with AFV engagement with penetrating AP shot disabling both 234/2's and allied engineers clearing the road with either explosives/cranes/dozers. Sounds the most plausible to me.

panzers forward!

panzerboy39