Tiger numbers

[Lennard]

numbers

Hi SF,
Still not sure just what numbers you are describing, can you list a few, are they 4, 6, 8, 10 digit for example.

Many items are numbers for quality check reasons, so that inspections can take place and acceptannce or rejection occur, others are to have a paper trail for invoicing purposes, as someone has to account for work done and get paid for it.

A few examples would help of the number type and where found.

regard lennard

[nomis]

Tiger numbers

Hi Lennard,

As i understand it ;

These numbers were stamped on the front hull and turret top,plus a VIN type plate on the internal superstructure.
The stamped numbers were similar to the VIN plate numbers [ AMP 250 123 for example ] but none of them seems to have matched or been in any sequence. So you would likely have 3 separate numbers per tank.

The lettering designated the manufacturer [ hull/turret ] and the numbering is implied to start at 250 *** up to the 1354 Tigers manufactured. Although several complete tanks were 'completed' reusing a few previously issued hulls/turrets, so their numbers would appear more than once in records ,unless re-numbered.

SF.

[Lennard]

Numbers

Hello SF,

Tiger turret fabricated assemblies were numbered 250 001 - 1354 plus
and manufactured by Krupp (bwn) and later DHHV (amp), number stamped on top of turret.

Tiger hull fabricated assemblies were numbered 250 001 - 1354 plus
and manufactured by Krupp (bwn) and later DHHV (amp), number stamped on hull top near drivers hatch.

Tiger turrets assembled as complete items and numbered 250-001 - 1354, assembled by Wegmann (cvd), number is an a data plate inside the turret (VIN plate).

Tiger hull completed and Wegmann turret added and chassis numbered 250 001 - 1354, hull is stamped internally twice with this number, also a data plate (VIN) with the same chassis number and the turret assembly number is mounted on the instrument panel.
all this final assembly is by Henschel (dkr)

The chassis number is of course the number that a tank will be known by for the rest of its life.

No one Tiger will have matching numbers, see the previously mentioned Panzerbasics on page 1 of this thread for numbers seen today on existing Tiger examples.

hope this is what you were looking for, as to whether there are original WWII documents that match every single Tiger chassis number with its various hull, turret and turret assembly numbers, is likely but finding it is another problem..

example, Kublinka Tiger I

Hull 250 315
Turret 250 332
Turret assembly unknown
Chassis number 250 427

cheers leonard paul

[nomis]

Tiger numbers

Hi Lennard,

The last sentance in your last email is the point of my questions.

I know the info you state throughout, but what i want to be able to do is take,for example, a top turret stamped number and link it to the other numbers in order to therefore identify the tank from its related VIN plate.

Tracing its unit and activities would be a further step, but its identifying a particular Tiger by a stamped turret or hull number that i am concerned with.

As i said, i find it hard to believe that absolutely no records for this exist, particularly when you see what still does exist and was recorded at the time.

SF.

[Lennard]

numbers

hi SF,

I am sure there were such records kept, it makes a lot of sense, and I would have thought for invoicing reasons and tracability etc., etc., essential.

Are you trying to do this because exterior numbers are easier to get at and read, than interior (chassis and turret assembly) numbers on existing vehicles ?.

I wish you luck, there has been a lot of confusion in the past particulary with the Vimoutiers Tiger I in Normandy, where its turret fabrication number 251113 (amp), which is stamped on the top outside surface of the turret, has been repeatedly misidentified as the chassis number, which of course it is not, leading to all kinds of errors over the unit it belonged too, its crew member names etc.,

cheers lennard

[nomis]

Tiger numbers

Hi Lennard,

The 'confusion' and mis-identification is a very good reason for wanting to know the linked numbers on each tank.

You will have seen over the years relic parts dug up and several have been turret top and hull front plate displaying these numbers.

Whilst there is no chance of identifying the Tiger from the few parts found, there would be if the combination of numbers was known.

Before you ask, no i am not lucky enough to have any marked parts in my possession. Tiger is an all-encompassing interest of mine, as for many others i believe.

In my view it would be of use and interest to have a listing of these appropriate sets of numbers.

I would also be interested in a definitive answer as to the reason for adding them. Perhaps Bovington might have this knowledge .

SF.

[Lennard]

Numbers

Hi SF,
Yes, would be a good set of data to have, but there is no real mystery with the assemblies being serial numbered, making tanks is a business, its standard business practice, that needs tracability, quality monitoring, invoicing, accountability etc., and the hull, turret, turret assembly and finally the entire tank are very expensive items with high quality parameters, they have to be individually tracable.

After all its no good saying, "......you know that tank turret we sent you last week, p.no 250xxx, ............sorry which one ? you sent us 30 identical turrets last week all p.no. 250xxx, ........ugh not sure , cannot tell.

So yes individual serial numbering is essential.

This is no different to any other business dealing with any other manufactured assembly, then or now.

Would like to know how you progress on this quest, and will be very useful.


A possible other area to look, are delivery notes of vehicles delivered to Heers-Panzer-Zeugamt, I say this because I have a copy of one such delivery note from Krupp Grusonwerk to H.Pz.z Altengrabow bei Leburg that details the delivery on 26 March 1945 of 10 StuG IV.

All 10 chassis (Fahrzeuge) are listed as well as 10 superstructures (Aufbauten) and 5 sets of left side skirts and 5 sets of left side skirts (Schutzwande).

So even at this point in the distribution process these vehicles are listed in groups of serial numbers, of course its not a panzer but nevertheless the hull chassis number and fighting compartment are listed separately.


cheers lennard

[nomis]

Tiger numbers.

Hi Lennard,

Don't hold your breath for any progress. Like i said...........a brick wall to-date.

I am confused . These were not 'part numbers'. The three sets of letters/numbers were all within the 1354 number range, but were all three different on each individual tank. Part numbers on items were a separate issue as i understand it.

I can see a need to identify 'hull' with 'turret' and 'complete tank', but where would the information be kept and then retained if it survived the war. I have exhausted the routes i can think of and cannot afford hours and hours of Bundesarchive Researchers time.

SF.

[Panzerbasics]

Part numbers

All kinds of numbers can be found on parts, often seemingly for internal factory use.
However, there are also the official numbers that seem to have matched to drawings with the same name.
These usually start with 021, followed by a letter (Seemingly random and sometimes "St"), then a four or five digit group number, possibly followed by a sub number / letter combination.
For Tiger E, hull part numbers should start with 021D 2701, folowed by sub numbers.
For Tiger E, Parts attached to the hull seem to start with 021D 2702, followed by sub numbers.
There is however a huge number of these groups, some with many sub items, like the ones above, but also a tool could have it's own group number.
Unfortunately, the archives do not have their classification system matched to these numbers, meaning that it is very time-consuming to find any.

Like with the finished hull / turret and serial numbers, we may be lucky to encounter some pieces of the puzzle, but it's very unlikely we will ever see it complete.

Best Regards,

Rob

[nomis]

Tiger numbers

We seem to be missing the point here, and its not rocket science.

These numbers were all of the same grouping and seem to have been for some reason other than part numbers.

They were in no way 'part' numbers. They obviously had some other specific reasoning behind them.

As i previously said, i have been told by a well respected Bundesarchive researcher that Panther details of the same kind were located, so why not Tiger.

SF

[Lennard]

numbers

Hi SF,

lets keep trying;-

The numbers mentioned for turrets, hulls, turret assemblies and complete chassis all begin with 25 because that is the number allocated somewhere in the German bureaucracy to represent a Tiger I, (likewise 28 was for the Tiger II), and no, its not for drawing/part numbers its for serial numbers that enable each major assembly to be individually identified.

So all four of the major assemblies mentioend above each had a 25 pre-fixed number and they ran from 0001 to 1354.


I am sure that somewhere there was a compilation document that showed which number turret, hull and turret assembly was with which chassis, it clearly was important to the Germans, as the Saumur Tiger for instance still has the main data plate on its instrument panel that states both the chassis number (251114 dkr 44) and the turret assembly number (250857).

Its the same as those StuG IV I mentioned, the chassis numbers are given, for example chassis 101109 had Aufbau 3638, even though its a fixed-to-the- chassis fighting compartment, its still individually numbered.

cheers lennard

[nomis]

Tiger numbers.

Hi Lennard,

In the knowledge of all this , any ideas where to look for the info.

SF.

[Lennard]

tiger

Hello SF,

Sorry no, they could be anywhere, that delivery note I mentioned came out of the Krupp archives, but I have only seen it in a book.

What did the Panther look like, can you show a sample, PM me if you like.

cheers lennard

[nomis]

Tiger numbers

Hi Lennard,

Never got to see Panther info. Was'nt my field of info required and the Researchers are very 'money motivated'. I guess its how they earn their living so they give nothing away.

Suffice to say ,i was ashored that detail had been provided for a 'client' and the same type of detail could be located for Tiger.

Rather fewer Tigers than Panthers produced as well.

The individual i dealt with was somewhat contradictory in his predictions, and as i say, for the money i paid him for some research to 'fairly easily replicate Panther info for Tiger' he produced zero information for me. I pulled back from continuing as i felt he would simply use me to earn cash.
Unfortunately, its money first, then we'll tell you if and what we found for you. So i paid for absolutely nowt, but had kept the initial financial/hourly input fairly low just to see how 'easily' he would produce any detail. I got my answer.

How did you access the Krupp archives.

I am still very keen to find this list of information, as i feel it is of interest and will be useful to others in the future.

As always, any help or guidance is greatfully accepted.

SF.

[nomis]

Tiger numbers

Hi Lennard,

Just re-read your last message , and you did'nt access Krupp files, info was seen in a book. Apology for being dense.

As i said, i am keen to find this info , so any help from any source would be greatfully received,

Regards, SF.