Jacques Littlefield Panther is being investigated by the feds

[birdie]

Good post

I've seen this gun already installed in czech bunker. Story is really incredible - I guess they found exactly the gun (identical serial number) that was installed in this bunker. Unfortunatelly, Ales Horak, guy taking care about bunker, and one of initiators of the action, passed away a year or two ago.

In Poland, most probably authorities would not agree to export such a gun. Ask Ohlau, if it's good or not.

I think that you can find a solution for most cases, even complicated, when you try to solve it with respect to all parties involved, and with respect to condition of item itself. I'm sure, that all of us are willing to respect law, but on the other hand I can bet that most of readers of this forum would vote to smuggle abroad the Stug from Saratov, as we see its current condition (let someone know, if it has improved significantly...).

Next thing, that starts to play in such a situation, is a national pride of citizens of countries, not being able to take care about their AFV heritage. I think all of Americans are proud of JL collection, but none is about condition of Aberdeen gems. Once again, it depends very much on approach of individuals, involved in the play.

For this same reason, please don't treat the approach of some polish members as approach of "Poland" or "Polish Government" - it's just private opinions of some polish citizens, nevertheless being able to send delations to the police ;-)

Well said and reasonable....

[Ohlau]

I've seen this gun already installed in czech bunker. Story is really incredible - I guess they found exactly the gun (identical serial number) that was installed in this bunker. Unfortunatelly, Ales Horak, guy taking care about bunker, and one of initiators of the action, passed away a year or two ago.

In Poland, most probably authorities would not agree to export such a gun. Ask Ohlau, if it's good or not.

I think that you can find a solution for most cases, even complicated, when you try to solve it with respect to all parties involved, and with respect to condition of item itself. I'm sure, that all of us are willing to respect law, but on the other hand I can bet that most of readers of this forum would vote to smuggle abroad the Stug from Saratov, as we see its current condition (let someone know, if it has improved significantly...).

Next thing, that starts to play in such a situation, is a national pride of citizens of countries, not being able to take care about their AFV heritage. I think all of Americans are proud of JL collection, but none is about condition of Aberdeen gems. Once again, it depends very much on approach of individuals, involved in the play.

For this same reason, please don't treat the approach of some polish members as approach of "Poland" or "Polish Government" - it's just private opinions of some polish citizens, nevertheless being able to send delations to the police ;-)

Text like from first page "Odkrywca" magazine. Looks like redhead works also here.

[herring]

????????????
what are you talking about?????

[Panzer]

I have seen with my own eyes how relics are treated in the East by both museums and "the State".....and sorry to say but any piece that ends up in appreciative hands in the west and is restored is another piece saved for posterity, because in the east they generally just let things rot.....in fields, outside museums and in museum basements! It's no good griping and wining about it belonging to the "State" and such.....the track record is there.....and frankly countries like Poland, Russia and the like are less than good citizens when it comes to looking after these historical artifacts!

So enough chest thumping and indignation.....you had your chance over many years and you blew it. I hope more items make it out!
Panzer

[r_hufschmied]

... So enough chest thumping and indignation.....you had your chance over many years and you blew it. I hope more items make it out!
Panzer

Talk about inciting even more "chest thumping ..." No offense but get your facts straight, neglect is far from unique nor confined to the eastern block. The Kubinka volunteers have made and still do sterling preservative work. The Muzeum Broni Pancernej in Poland do very well as well.

The worst example of a rotting, severely neglected collection of unique vehicles is the Aberdeen Proving Ground in the USA. I cringe every time I see pictures of the Panthers, Jagdtiger, Jagdpanzers and so on ...

[Panzer]

I couldn't agree more, but that is not what is being discussed here.....what is being shouted about is the removal (which appears to be a legitimate purchase anyhow) of a vehicle FROM Poland and this vehicle is now restored in the US. I applaud this.....and I deplore the loss of ANY historical artifact to neglect. and the fact is that there is story after story with pictures of vehicles of historical importance being recovered and then rotting in the east.
panzer

[Gimpy117]

Talk about inciting even more "chest thumping ..." No offense but get your facts straight, neglect is far from unique nor confined to the eastern block. The Kubinka volunteers have made and still do sterling preservative work. The Muzeum Broni Pancernej in Poland do very well as well.

The worst example of a rotting, severely neglected collection of unique vehicles is the Aberdeen Proving Ground in the USA. I cringe every time I see pictures of the Panthers, Jagdtiger, Jagdpanzers and so on ...

but we are talking about the case of this panther, which has been saved. If somebody took those tanks from aberdeen and restored them..more power to them.

[Ohlau]

"a vehicle FROM Poland and this vehicle is now restored in the US"

This vehicle left Poland in illegal way. and nothing can change it.

how relics are treated in the East

At first you haven't seen all museums. Second : "East" Owner of things can do with it whatever he want, and it's not your business.

[Panzer]

Hey....naturally ALL museums are not like this......but sorry........your country (I might add my own Father is Polish..... and my grandfather lies under it's earth having fallen fighting against Germany!) has a bad record on this subject. Do you honestly think that this vehicle would have been restored to the level it has been in Poland?....I suggest not, or you would have done more like it. It sounds like sour grapes to me.

If you want to have an agrument, then take on the guys in POLAND who sold it off (and made the money!)......and by the way, it is NOT PROVEN that it was illegal......not at this point anyhow. I suggest this has a lot of "self interest" given the interests of the person who "reported" this to the authorities Hey....maybe Polish private collectors shuld PAY for whay comes out of Polish soil? Like everyone else is supposed to?

And finally.....if it is not my business how is it more YOURS? Hmmmm?
Panzer

[Ohlau]

if it is not my business

Yes. Cases of what we do with war relics in Poland are not your business. Looks like to hard to understand.

then take on the guys in POLAND who sold it off (and made the money!)......

Thanks for Australian advice -but I will wait for Police/CBŚ/Prosecutor job.

NOT PROVEN

[Bradley Smith]

Yes. Cases of what we do with war relics in Poland are not your business. Looks like to hard to understand.



Thanks for Australian advice -but I will wait for Police/CBŚ/Prosecutor job.

If it was decided by the current holders that the only way that tank would return to Poland was not as a complete restoration, but in it's previous condition as a rusted out piece of scrap, and that the other pieces would be hucked into the ocean before getting sold to anyone anywhere near Poland, would you still be this insistent that it be returned?
Will you wait for the tank to be returned to it's previous condition, or demand that it be returned immediately, "as is"?

[paddywhack]

Yes. Cases of what we do with war relics in Poland are not your business. Looks like to hard to understand.



Thanks for Australian advice -but I will wait for Police/CBŚ/Prosecutor job.

ok so after read this huge thread its comes down to one question at this moment in this time and place,has the ALLEGED theft of this panther been PROVEN by a court of law whether in a polish or US court or is it simply people making assumptions based on what there own opinion is?if it has NOT been proven in a court of law then at the MOMENT it is not stolen and no amount of shouting and accusations of "its got nothing to do with you your not from this or that country" will change that till it is proven!

[Ohlau]

it is not stolen

You are funny .....

[cossack1648]

Some people assume that it was stolen because it was excavated in Poland and shipped outside that country. What if it actually was sold by some Polish authorities (bribed or not) and documents exist in JL possesion that Polish state sold it. Are you sure that such documents don't exist Ohlau?

[cossack1648]

What is interesting is that in JL collection there is a Sdkfz 251 that was also recovered in Poland and shipped out to Germany. It was very well preserved and complete. Why nobody is crying about getting it back. Not that valuable as the Panther.

Even if that Panter was stolen, it will be very difficult for Poland to get it back if even possible. Since that tank is in the USA, you will have to prove your right before US court. That will cost a fortune considering multiple international transactions and complexity of the case. I doubt if Polish court or authorities' statements have any importance outside Poland, since no Polish authorities have any power in the USA. You will have to go US court. Such cases take long time and money, even if you are 100% right.

As an example my friend builds houses. Unknowingly to him the title company didn't pay taxes for one year for one house and he lost it to someone who bought it for one year taxes being owed to the state. Following years taxes were paid. He was perfectly right and simply title company were at fault. It took him 3 years of court battles and a few hundred thousands of dollars to get it back. So if you want that Panther back, prepare for a long battle in the US court. I doubt if Polish state will push it, since court costs may exceed the tank value.