Jacques Littlefield Panther is being investigated by the feds

[Hans Zeug]

Get over it.

Sorry, nobody in Poland asked for the renovation of the tank in usa. There was no permission to take away this tank from Poland !

Rich US collectors made a profit with international smugglers - that is real shame.

Herring - don't defend smugglers

Hi,you didn't look after it in the first place,it's in the right place for it's long term preservation,you're not getting it back! Get over it! Regards.

[babyteeth]

I know I said I wouldn’t post again but this has turned into a much better debate, so I thought I would just block those who seem to just want to argue.

I have a couple of legal questions that someone might know the answer to.

If, as seem to be suggested, the target of the legal action is the exporter and previous owner (I thought this was the Polish government but I could be wrong) and it comes to light that all the correct paperwork was obtained by the exporter but by means of bribery. Does it then mean that all the documents become void or does it just mean the person is guilty of corruption?

Do you see what I mean? If the correct authorities stamped and agreed the paper work but took bribes what does that actually mean legally for the status of the Panther?

I think what some of the Polish guys are arguing is not that the wreck was illegally sold but that it was exported by dubious means.

[herring]

Ohlau,
I don't know, if they are smugglers. You showed one document, I have no idea what documents has another side - probably you will see it in court.

It doesn't have to be a bribery, that caused that someone decided to risk an export. Very often a law is inconsistent, people are simply finding gaps. Btw, legally, if someone brings to Poland an item produced before 1945, he should have a permission to bring it back. So probably you would like to leave in Poland all AFV's coming here from abroad for shows?

It looks like your point is to bring the Panther back to Poland, you give the arguments to make it happen. It's a free world, you can do it.

I'm a bit worried - how people in Poland can build their collections, if someone goes to police everytime when they swap with tanks or tank parts with foreign collectors? Especially after the story like this, no authority will give any permission - why to risk an action of people with approach similar to yours? I think that free market is also helping to preserve multiple items - but then you need to listen to other people, not only to present law. Just now you can start dozens of lawsuits about similar cases against other countries, also dozens of lawsuits can be started against Poland. Please notice, that usually behind such things there is hidden someones privat business. I think that law should be used for building things, not for destroying them. "Pereat mundus, fiat iustitia"?

I see that you perceive things in very simple way - I just say that they may be more complicated than you think.

We need to wait for a sentence by polish agency - it doesn't make a sense to look ourselves for new evidence or arguments.

I think there are two points:
1. If something was smuggled, it should be solved somehow;
2. Panther that left Poland and Panther now is not the same thing.

[Gimpy117]

well and also, I think a lot of the outrage, especially from the Americans like me, Is the seemingly bad faith that the legal case is in. Boiling down to the fact that the tank was neglected, then restored...and then only now is Poland wanting it back.

[TRC]

No sense getting worked up, this will drag on for years in courts.
And in the end, Poland will probably balk on even paying the return shipping fee.

[Bob Carter]

It's implied that the shipping papers were provided through dubious means (bribery) - was that the first time it was exported or the second , and is there any proof - C'mon guys this case is so convoluded and has more twists than a corkscrew , no judge in his right mind (european or US) is gonna touch it , whatever goes in one court sure isn't going to be accepted in the other, and who's footing the bill on the Polish end in this economy- and what about all the other smaller vehicles found in Poland, have they "ALL" been turned over to the Polish government (I'm going to start searching the web and "youtube" for vehicles found on or "in" Polish soil that have been restored and see who owns them)- Maybe the Polish Government should start with what's within its own borders first to look legitimate to the rest of the world.

[cossack1648]

tank

Polish government being so concerned about this lost tank and getting it back. They should have more important issues to be concerned with, like finding couple of billions of dollars to reimburst Jewish families for their lost properties that were ceased by the state after the war. Now these families want these properties or their equivalent value back. What goes around, comes around.

[Taranov]

And in the end, Poland will probably balk on even paying the return shipping fee.

Plus all restoration works, spare parts etc

[Ohlau]

I'm a bit worried - how people in Poland can build their collections

I'm also worried how "people" in Poland builded their collections in illegal way.

You showed one document

sorry, not me. Trouble with eyes ?

[Ohlau]

finding couple of billions of dollars to reimburst Jewish families for their lost properties]

Probably only in Fort Knox

[Gun Bunny]

Probably only in Fort Knox

That is sad, now you are trying to make some point by grabbing at straws!

Just because I am American isn't the reason I feel the tank should stay with the Littlefields, if it was over Wheatcrafts tank I would feel the same way!

You have to look at it also that the Panther was sold as "scrap". In no way was the tank "operational", if the buyer decides to restore it is up to the owner. The tank had left the country before which may have been illegal, but after it returned to Poland and sold again may make it a legal sale. The courts may decide that.

To assume JL knowingly bribed or purchased it in some illegal way now that he has passed is beyond me! He has purchased numerous items from numerous Countries over the years and I doubt any of them were illegal. The U.S. government would not allow it with so many restrictions on importation.

Why do the Poles on this board want it back so bad? It is a relic from a Country that conquered yours, I could understand more if it was a Polish tank that fought to defend your Country, but not a German tank. Where was the outcry when pics of the tank just rusting away in the scrapyard all those years?

[Ohlau]

Sorry mate, disagree. Tank was under Polish law during recovery action. I'm not going to change my opinion.

[Jeff V]

The only theft going on here is the Polish government trying to steal JL Panther after all the money and time to restore it. They obviously did not care for it when they had it rusting away in a river for 60 years. You Poles act like JL snuck a perfect condition Panther out of your top museum in the middle of the night. When of course the reality is totally different. The thing WAS scrap.

The United States goverment behaves the same way when someone finds a worthless hulk of an airplane at the bottom of the sea or swamp for 60 years. Only after the thing is restored with thousands of hours work and untold money does the goverment declare it is theirs.
best wishes,
jeff

[Simon O.]

So here is a puzzle: let's assume that one of TKS chassis was taken from Norway and now is in Poland. So it should be norwegian, polish or german?

Story for not involved ones - originally polish tank, taken in 1939 as a trophy by germans, then as Beutewagen sent to Norway.

If story is true - what's the opinion of polish collectors with "legal" approach?

The point is, there has to be a system that controls what goes where. I know there are and have been a few TKS in Norway, so, if a Polish museum would like one, the way to go about it is to perhaps offer something in exchange to the Norwegian defence museum.

Norway is full of non-German weapons and vehicles, read a great story recently of a bunker restoration carried out in the Czech republic using parts from a Czech 47mm AT gun that was in Norway.


Then of course there's the mass of former German vehicles that were bought by companies and private individuals just after the war for things like farm and forestry work. RSOs i know were popular for forestry work. In those cases of course it's up to the owner to decide who he sells it to, but he will still need and export licence.

and just to add to the story, there are many here that are not happy at all with the way the defence museum authorities handle things. Take for example the 3 Pz.III ausf.N recovered a few years ago (search here for the thread).

[herring]

, read a great story recently of a bunker restoration carried out in the Czech republic using parts from a Czech 47mm AT gun that was in Norway.

I've seen this gun already installed in czech bunker. Story is really incredible - I guess they found exactly the gun (identical serial number) that was installed in this bunker. Unfortunatelly, Ales Horak, guy taking care about bunker, and one of initiators of the action, passed away a year or two ago.

In Poland, most probably authorities would not agree to export such a gun. Ask Ohlau, if it's good or not.

I think that you can find a solution for most cases, even complicated, when you try to solve it with respect to all parties involved, and with respect to condition of item itself. I'm sure, that all of us are willing to respect law, but on the other hand I can bet that most of readers of this forum would vote to smuggle abroad the Stug from Saratov, as we see its current condition (let someone know, if it has improved significantly...).

Next thing, that starts to play in such a situation, is a national pride of citizens of countries, not being able to take care about their AFV heritage. I think all of Americans are proud of JL collection, but none is about condition of Aberdeen gems. Once again, it depends very much on approach of individuals, involved in the play.

For this same reason, please don't treat the approach of some polish members as approach of "Poland" or "Polish Government" - it's just private opinions of some polish citizens, nevertheless being able to send delations to the police ;-)