Jacques Littlefield Panther is being investigated by the feds

[babyteeth]

It doesn't matter who owns the tank it was still smuggled illegal out of Poland.

Do you have proof of this other than that one article you linked to?
I'm not trying to be funny but it was pulled out of the river 20 years ago and sold twice before it went to Littlefield. You would think that if the Polish state was so keen on keeping then they wouldn't have sold it the first time and maybe tried to get it back before it was restored.

I have looked and cant not find anything else on this on the internet, odd considering the high profile nature of this Panther. I have a feeling this will all just fade away.

[Ohlau]

"Do you have proof of this other than that one article you linked to?"

???

Proofs are provisions of the Polish law.

Somebody sold something what didn't belong to him without the permission of owner in light of Polish law. I think it's simple.
What dealers did with tank is a separate issue and it isn't significant in the light above.

[babyteeth]

Ohlau, I understand your passion about this, but I feel none of this is as clear cut as any of us might think, including me.

It’s too easy to jump to conclusions and lets not forget that none of us know just how much of the article is fact. We all know what the media are like.

[TRC]

Seems things are breaking down on a nationalist basis, with Poles obviously in great favor of getting this restored beast back.
If the government had not waited a decade plus to take any action, I might be more sympathetic to their case.
Also, ignoring their own statute of limitations and applying some obscure cultural heritage law to a German tank seems a big disingenuous, to say the least.

It should stay where its at.
As pointed out, if not for this transfer it would be sitting, as we speak, a useless, rusting hulk out on some field.
Now it is, at great expense, shared with the world in its former glory, perserved and safe.

[babyteeth]

Seems things are breaking down on a nationalist basis, with Poles obviously in great favor of getting this restored beast back.
If the government had not waited a decade plus to take any action, I might be more sympathetic to their case.
Also, ignoring their own statute of limitations and applying some obscure cultural heritage law to a German tank seems a big disingenuous, to say the least.

It should stay where its at.
As pointed out, if not for this transfer it would be sitting, as we speak, a useless, rusting hulk out on some field.
Now it is, at great expense, shared with the world in its former glory, perserved and safe.

I completely agree TRC. Maybe the Polish police could put their efforts in to stopping the digging and removing of 'Cultural artefacts' from bodies found on ww2 battlefields...

[Lloyd I.]

Sad story but so very, very common. I remember a Huey being restored by Bob Carr of Florida that flew with the Kingsman in Vietnam. Complete restoration. His political enemies claimed he stole parts from Sheriff's department helicopters to restore the one he owned. Short story, he was arrested, fully dragged through the mud, his restored airworthy UH-1 was stripped and rots in a bone yard only for him to be cleared of all the charges.

Nice of Poland to wait for it to be restored at someone else expense before crying foul and wanting it back.

Like I said, a common story as it concerns military vehicles and aircraft.

[Martin1]

Totally unbelievable....
If these items are so valuable to the Polish government they better start with the UK relic market. To say it is overrun with dug Polish item would be an understatement. Anything from tank wheels to Me109 cockpit glass. All sold by your fellow countryman, so someone better tell these guys of the consequence.

As for proof of ownership this question will arise time and time again now these things are worth millions. Unless there is a clear case of outright deception and theft they are best left in the hand of their present owners.

[Schnellmeyer]

I think the timing of this case smells , the Polish authorities waited all this time only go on a witch hunt now . Jacques Littlefield (RIP) and his staff have done a wonderful job restoring this Panther , had it still been in Poland today it would be in a scrap yard . I think Paul70 had the right idea , that technically all German WW2 vehicles are still property of Germany , will all museums and collectors give up their vehicle collections ? , no I dont think so . I am sorry but in this case I fully support the Panther remaining in the USA .

[birdie]

Solution

Man the Panzer with a new crew, arm it...if the Polish athorities can take it , they can have it. Clearly the tank would have been left to rot and rust if left in Poland, It has been restored to greatness and a treasure for the whole world..In this case the end justifies the means..In my humble opinion

[herring]

In my opinion, all thing is about lawyer's tricks and private interest of some individuals. Guy, who started all the story by informing "polish FBI" is a lawyer (mentioned in article), and has his own AFV museum ( e.g. link http://www.exploracja.cyberdusk.pl/p...hp?f=3&t=13285 ). Waiting untill this moment makes a sense - as red in some previous posts mr. L. family is not interested very much in the collection. Guy was cooperating with many collectors and museums in Poland - effect is, that many of them is happy not to cooperate with him any more.
Other thing is, that exporting a Panther abroad was not a most official operation, that you can imagine.

[syd04qx]

I am sure that Littlefield had a huge pile of papers with official government stamps and signatures just to get the Panther wreck out of Poland much less out of Europe and into the US. Does that mean the purchase would pass muster in a Polish court 10+ years after the fact, I don't know, and I don't think it really matters because under US law possession is nine tenths of the law and this matter can only be settled in a US court. It will not make the Poles reading these posts feel any better, but they are not the only ones feeling robbed of "cultural heritage." The Canadians had a StuG III that they had captured in Normandy in the terrible battles around Caen 'purchased' right off one of their bases in Canada. The Brits lost a Jagdpanzer IV/L70 (V) in a questionable trade, and the Americans have lost a Tiger I they captured in North Africa after simply loaning the vehicle out. I think the Littlefield transaction is alot less shady than most just because of the number of years the wreck sat in Poland in a scrap yard with no government interest. If governments want to keep and protect these artifacts they need to take care of them! Sorry, but having laws on the books is not enough! I think a few people will remember what happened to the rare British A13 cruiser tank in France recently (I believe a BEF veteran of the 1940 campaign!). These vehicles can suffer a fate worse than being picked up by private collectors, it's called the scrappers cutting torch.

The Polish military is to be commended for how much time and money was spent restoring the StuG IV they recovered not too many years ago (I am sure there were lots of volunteers helping too). It's too bad they don't have a complete Panther, but to be honest I find it much more depressing that the Polish military is not interested in working out deals with the US and other European countries for restorable examples of WW2 armour that the Poles actually used and many times gave their lives fighting in to help liberate Italy and NWE. I know Tigers and Panthers get visitors through the doors of museums, but I would gladly donate to the cause of getting a few more running Allied vehicles in Poland because I think what happened at Monte Casino and Falaise in 1944 was a lot more important than what happened in on the Czarna Nida in January 1945.

[Asbjoern]

As already stated .... many stuff on the marked is in fact illegal ! Most countries in europ have very strict treasure laws to protect the historic heritage under ground from being dug up (and ripped of its historical information...) by unprofessional "treasure hunters" only keen on the relic itself and its market value ... first hand this should protect antique stuff (roman, celtic etc), but also it means that in germany it is a 100% NONO to dig - for example in the Bulge area to find WW 2 relics! So every deal may have e little smell...

But: This specific tank was - to my information - known for a long time, and recovered with the help of the government. So no illegal digging took place. Then it seems that polish government had no interest in this "heap of scrap" (maybe it turned out to worse for official stuff back then and gave it to private hands ... does anybody here have insight view in the paperwork of this deal ? I thing not ... maybe it was already defined as scrap back then ...and 99.99% of all people would have agreed!!

Regards,

Jens

[TRC]

USA has very strict laws against digging at battle sites, and other areas designated as historical interest.
Gettysburg, Valley Forge, Bull Run ect are strictly off limits for digging, and you will get in very serious trouble if you are caught.
I don't think this is so much to protect some obscure notion of cultural heritage, but more to keep the sites from getting trashed by treasure diggers, and showing a measure of respect for the men who fought and died there.

[Ohlau]

"So no illegal digging took place"

nonsenses

[Asbjoern]

Did you attend this action ? Do you have insight to all documentation ? Or is it just your ignorance to talk about "nonsense"?

The only thing I know (and thats independent from the case of this tank) is that the status of an "found" object depends on how it was found and recovered... if you enter an area without permission, dig out something and try to hide it from the ground owner, the government etc in more or less all countries this would be seen as illegal. If you recover something that is well known and which is not an official monument (or gravesite as shipwrecks) and you are supported by government organization you will have some strong arguments that your action was not illegal and are not a classical grave robber ... and don´t forget that the recovery took place years ago when AFV were not as valuable as today and the tank turned out as being not in a mint condition ...

Jens