Jacques Littlefield Panther is being investigated by the feds

[Billy B]

There is an article in the largest Polish newspaper talking about the Panther. According to the article it was illegally excavated and illegally shipped out of the country. The parties that excavated the Panther tried to ship it out legally but they got a big NO from the general conservator, after that it disappeared.
A Polish collector who happens to be a lawyer got the local feds and prosecutors interested and they are investigating. It looks like they are treating it like a stolen object of “cultural significance” and want to get to the bottom of it after 20 years.


Here is the link to the article, and pictures. If someone can translated pleas do it sounds very interesting since this has been brought up form time to time. Polish laws are very strict and clear about exporting antiques, nothing made prior to 1947 can be shipped out.


http://wyborcza.pl/1,75248,9241320,A...BS_do_USA.html

[cossack1648]

Panther

This article is basically saying that that Panther was recovered by a private company with a help of a military recovery unit. Then that company tried to ship the tank out of Poland, but didn't get the authority's approval. Then the tank dissapeared and was smuggled out to Britain and then to USA. In export papers it was described as scrap.

Now a militaria enthusiast and a lawer is investigating that case. According to Polish law you can't export any historical objects outside the country. The case was investigated in the past, but was dismissed due to expiration. Now they claim that shipping that tank out of Poland was a crime against Polish National Cultural heritage and because of that it cannot expire. They will try to get that tank back.

That in short what the article says.

My thought is what kind of significance to Polish National Cultural heritage does a German tank have. It is only a historical artifact. It is a part of Polish history, but not Polish in origin. Now it has been restored and it is worth a lot and worth an effort to try to get it back. I think it just comes down to money and media blow the case up.

[Mat Holloway]

if it hadnt been rescued by international efforts then it would be parked in a storage area and robbed for all parts by so called souvenir hunters aka parts dealers, then the hulk would be left outside to rust like all the others that have been "rescued"

im quite happy to see it restored

[Rob G.]

Given it is in my backyard, I can say it's a mean machine. Simply beautiful! Couldn't have fallen into better hands.

[TRC]

Don't think they have a leg to stand on, morally or legally, claiming a Panther as part of "Polish culture".
Probably a bit of unscrupulous activity involved in the whole deal, bottom line, this fine, historic relic is restored, the Poles should let it go [and search for more Panthers!]

[cossack1648]

Panther

My guess is if it was left in Poland it would end up like that Stug in Russia. Most of those finds are moved to some museum and left in the open on the yard. Museum in Warsaw has few rare tanks and airplanes and they are kept outside and deteriorate only being repainted every few years.

I don't believe they have much chances to take it back. This Panther is not in Poland, so Polish law doesn't apply where it is right now. I don't think they even have legal proof like serial numbers to prove that it was in Poland. Nobody owned it in Poland, so it was't stolen. It was sold legally as scrap, because that what it was at that time.

Now it is restored, very valuable and someone wants to put his hand on her. But many of her parts (turret) and systems are restored or added as being missed originaly. They were not on this tank when it was in Poland.

By the way in that article thay say that the turret was sticking out of the water and was blown out by Polish army as part of cleaning.

[f35jsf]

(...) Nobody owned it in Poland, so it was't stolen.(...)

You are wrong.
Get to know the Polish law - then you can write such opinions.

(...)My thought is what kind of significance to Polish National Cultural heritage does a German tank have. It is only a historical artifact. It is a part of Polish history, but not Polish in origin.(...)

USA neither...so Panther should be in Germany...

[Ohlau]

My few cents :

Vehicle (on Polish Law) was property of Polish State.

There was no official permission of Polish authorities to sold and export recovered tank, which wasn't property of private company.

Sorry, but with great respect to mister L., he didn't buy tank from LEGAL owner (in this case Polish authorities).

[babyteeth]

If I remember correctly the history of this panther isn’t as clear as some think.
I read way back in 2006 that the Panther had been known about right from the end of the war. An attempt to clear it had been made by the Polish army in the 50’s and this is when the turret was completely destroyed. This is wrongly reported in the Tank Overhaul programme.
The recovery of this panther from the Czarna Nida River was eventually carried out by the Polish army in 1991 and sold to a German collector.
After a number of years it was then sold back to a Polish collector who I believe was responsible for the for the patchwork turret repair. The Panther languished in a scrap yard for many years until the Polish collector sold it to Littlefield because he could not afford the restoration.

I don’t mean to be rude but there is no way this Panther belongs to the Polish authorities. After all it was them that sold it to the German collector in the first place!
This is nothing more than someone chancing their arm to get a fully restored Panther in Poland without having to pay the millions it would cost to restore one.
If there had been anything illegal or dubious about its ownership do you really think Littlefiled would have been so open about its restoration and where it came from? I think not.
I think it is pretty disgusting as how come there was no interest in it from Poland while Littlefield was alive and its restoration was so in the public!

[syd04qx]

Why didn't the Polish government act on this ten years ago? This vehicle sat around for years waiting to be restored, why didn't the Polish government act then?

I understand the desire of the Polish government to have such a valuable artifact now that many millions of private dollars have been spent on restoring it. The US government also goes out it's way to claim ownership of recovered US military aircraft and other hardware. The US Navy is particularly bad at waiting for private groups to spend massive amounts of cash recovering and restoring artifacts only to start legal efforts to seize the artifacts. The situation has gotten so bad that there are questions about whether it's legal to re-import into the US even M4 Shermans wrecks that have been cut down to their lower hulls for work in the Canadian forestry business.

The sad thing for the Poles is that as they go after this Panther, they don't have even a single operational M4 Sherman in their collection, ok, they have a Grizzle, a Canadian built M4 variant their soldiers never even trained in, much less used in combat. No the Poles don't have a single running tank of the type they used in Italy or NWE, no Cromwells, no Shermans, No Stuarts. O' for just one beautiful Firefly painted up and running every May 8th to do the memory of the 1st Polish Armored Div. good. Hell do they even have a running Staghound or Universal Carrier? These vehicles are lot less rare than German panzers and so there is really no excuse. I guess they do have a ton of LWP wrecks rusting away. Maybe that restored IS-2 can parade with that Panther in Warsaw.

[Ohlau]

babyteeth: tank was polish state property during recovering action on polish law, and this is with no question and over discussion. You have no knowledge about polish law. Tank was recovered by private guy. He had help from Polish Army and thats all. Army did not take the tank so they can not sold it. If you take and trade not your property with no permission its simply crime. Sorry.

[cossack1648]

Panther

I know that by the Polish law everything found in the ground belongs to the state. However if this is true that Polish state sold the tank to German collector, then they sold the ownership rights, arent't they.

I tend to believe that if there was anything illigal, nobody whoud know where that tank is today.

Jack

[SJP]

Alot of palms got greased & a "finders fee" paid I would imagine.

Moving a 35T piece of machinery from Poland to Belgium which is where I think it might have been loaded on a ship would have required alot of permits and authorites looking the other way IMO

When money is no object anything is possible. " No " &" C'ant" just are not in some peolple's vocabulary.
__________________________________________________
Cheers Steve

[Paul70]

According to international law (you can debate if that supersedes National Law) the tank belongs to the country who made it, unless it is given as war repreations or sold by that nation.

So technically the tank belongs to the German state first.

US laws say that if you unknowingly purchase stolen property it has to be returned to the original owner, however, if repairs have been made the first owner has to pay for the repairs, if he doesn't you can charge storage fees until he pays. So how many millions for restoration?

I had a friend that had a high dollar car sold by the body shop he took it to to get repaired from a wreck. 15 years later the new owner called him to see if he had the original driving lights. He tried to get it back, but would have to pay tens of thousands for the restoration.

Paul

[Billy B]

So technically the tank belongs to the German state first.
l

It doesn't matter who owns the tank it was still smuggled illegal out of Poland. I have been informed that the Polish government spend 300mil on a new military museum in Warsaw to be opened in 2014 and millions on a museum in Gdansk. So it looks like they might be looking for new exhibits. I don't think they will ever recover it but the people who smuggled it out will be in some serious legal trouble.
Back in the 90's Poland was a wild west and everything of value was sold to make a quick buck. They are in the EU now and want to appear more civilized so i think more of these cases will be coming up.

Polish law is just like the UK law on this matter everything found in the ground belongs to the state. You also need permission from a local conservator or archeologist to start digging.