New tank ?

[johan]

Hi i was just sitting here thinking could a Tiger or Kingtiger stand up to a new tank in armourpircing an protection against say an M1 or Leopard 2 ?

[Asbjoern]

100% NO ... in these days protection relied 100% on homogeneous steel, in some countries cast, in others - as germany - made from rolled steel plates. Today the armor of actual AFV consists of a multi layer compound of fibers, ceramics etc ... The recipe for this is one of the most secured secret in today`s tank technology... The armor plates thickness on a wheeled AFV as the german Dingo measures only around 1cm but is able to stop even a .50 Cal. (or bigger) round which would go through steel as through butter Old stile "tanks" as the M113 (made from aluminium!) or the german Fuchs transporter are only safe up to direct hits of .308!!

Also the capability of destroying an enemy grow ... the good old 88 was able to fight enemy tanks on a may range of 2000 m . Leo / M1 engage their foes at ranges up to 4.000 m. So the Tiger would not even reach its fighting distance before getting hit. Also there was no stabilization of the gun - so shooting whilst driving was more or less senseless ... not to speak from all the night sight stuff ...

Regards,

Jens

[Gimpy117]

agree with above, they'd be outgunned and outarmored.

[Bullitt]

Hi

and don't forget their manouvrebility
moder MBT's do 70 km/h at ease whilst the WWII era bigger tanks did 45 km/u maxthat would make them sitting ducks

ciao
Bullitt

[Captain Black]

How would the 88 go against the armour on a modern tank?

[Greg]

How would the 88 go against the armour on a modern tank?

Judging from some experiences with older Soviet-style tanks during Desert Storm, an 88 AP round from a Tiger I/II would likely partly penetrate the outer layer of the composite armor (the metal "box" that holds the layers of composite), and just be stuck there or be deflected away. Even 125mm SABOT AP rounds from Iraqi T-72s did not penetrate the frontal armor of M1A1s or Challengers during Desert Storm. And the 88 would have to be really close (probably under 1,000 meters).

Now around the sides and back? Well, an 88 might shoot through the back of the turret or grill doors of a modern tank!

Best,
Greg

[Asbjoern]

... Well, an 88 might shoot through the back of the turret or grill doors of a modern tank! ...

...as long as we talk about the "older" versions of Abrams/ Leopard still equipped only for dueling other MBTs in a front to front situation... Modern battle scenario claims a 360 degree protection so the latest upgrade versions (at least the Leopard ) should have more or less the same protection capability on all sides including the upper side which could be attacked by bombletts or intilligent artillery ammo ...

Jens

[PresidentEvil]

And some modern tanks have what you call "Active armor" that detects incoming projectiles and detonates them before they even hit the armor.

Modern guns with radioactiveenforced tungsten grenades would shoot right through a KT. IMHO

[Greg]

Modern guns with radioactiveenforced tungsten grenades would shoot right through a KT. IMHO

I have the business end of a 120mm M1A1 tank gun SABOT round on my desk, and I have no doubt that the depleted uranium penetrator would go all the way through a KT or anything else from WWII, from end to end.

[jiipee76]

Only advantage of old tanks like Tiger was their capability to go through heavy walls and knock over even big trees(act as a bulldozer).

Modern tanks cannot do that without serious sructural damage.

[Captain Black]

It wasn't just the thickness of the armour but also the angular lines which added to the strength of the KT's protection but by the sounds of it even this wouldn't help it these days!
Off track a little but how do the modern tanks shape up against each other? With the strength of modern armour is it a lucky hit that would knock another tank out or are the main guns capable of penetrating each other?

[Greg]

A lot of factors at work on what can shoot through what, under different circumstances ... but tank guns shooting depleted uranium rounds can penetrate a lot.

I know the dangers of Wiki as a source, but this Wiki article on M1-series and battle damage during Desert Storm and in Iraq 2003 and later is well-researched. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams There are some good examples posted of friendly fire where M1A1 120mm gun with depleted uranium SABOT (armor piercing) penetrated all the way through the hull of another M1A1.

Then again, the armor protects in the right circumstances, but there have been many Abrams knocked out in Iraq in 2003 and later by RPGs and other small anti-tank rockets, of course mines and IEDs, and even small caliber anti-tank guns at close range and under the right (or wrong, from the crew's perspective) circumstances.

Best,
Greg

[johan]

Thanks guys for your input

[PEVO]

As much a as all of "us" Tiger, Tiger II , Panther Tank fans would like to daydream about. They would stand no chance what-so-ever it todays modern world of weapons (in a tank battle). Just as WWII prop driven warbirds stand no chance against moden-day jets. (well except it the stupid iron eagle movie) Best chance for a WWII tank would be to knock off a track before they get holed like swiss cheese, & the turret cooks off about 50 ft in the air.

[Bullitt]

Hi

well there is one thing we can't forget.....the crew

a well trained crew in a Tiger II surely will kill any modern MBT with a less trained crew....element of surprise, cleverness,tactics etc ...will be the advantage

the day MBT's will be unmanned and fully automated with all kinds of high tech and computerized systems then the old school doesn"t have a chance of winning this clash of the titans

ciao
Bullitt