Stug Identification Needed

[Sambini]

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</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right rowSpan=2><SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var em; em = ""; em = em + "b";em = em + "a";em = em + "g";em = em + "b";em = em + "y";em = em + "s";em = em + "@";em = em + "b";em = em + "e";em = em + "l";em = em + "l";em = em + "s";em = em + "o";em = em + "u";em = em + "t";em = em + "h";em = em + ".";em = em + "n";em = em + "e";em = em + "t"; document.write("Sam Bagby"); // --> </SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT>&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nb sp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbspSa m Bagby&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp</NOSCRIPT>


</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>Hello,


I need some help identyfing which unit this stug belonged to. I'm thinking the stug is in Berlin maybe. Are there any more pictures of stug's with this added armor?

http://community.webshots.com/user/sambo2003

Thanks,
Sam

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[cbo]

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</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right rowSpan=2><SCRIPT language=Javascript> <!-- var em; em = ""; em = em + "b";em = em + "a";em = em + "g";em = em + "b";em = em + "y";em = em + "s";em = em + "@";em = em + "b";em = em + "e";em = em + "l";em = em + "l";em = em + "s";em = em + "o";em = em + "u";em = em + "t";em = em + "h";em = em + ".";em = em + "n";em = em + "e";em = em + "t"; document.write("Sam Bagby"); // --> </SCRIPT><NOSCRIPT>&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp& ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&am pnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbspSam Bagby&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampn bsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbs p&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp&ampnbsp</NOSCRIPT>




</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>Hello,I need some help identyfing which unit this stug belonged to. I'm thinking the stug is in Berlin maybe. Are there any more pictures of stug's with this added armor?

http://community.webshots.com/user/sambo2003

Thanks,
Sam


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What added armour are you referring to? The only thing I can see in the photo is a cover over the drivers vision slot - is that it? So far, I have only seen it on Finnish or ex-Finnish StuGs like this one:



http://www.saunalahti.fi/veijju/tankit/tank10.html

See also tis page:

http://www.andreaslarka.net/sturmi.html

Look about half way down for a reference to "A welded visor-shield were to be welded in front of the drivers visor. "

See also these surviving Finnish StuGs of which several have this modification:

http://www.andreaslarka.net/assaultguns.html

Of course, the Germans could have made the same modification, I've just dont recall ever seeing it mentioned.

[Von Strehmel]

???

I couldn't tell you what unit its was with but it is a late model Stug with the saukopf mantlet, but it dosen't have the concrete reinforcing added. I agree with you that its in Berlin and I'll guss that it is was assigned to a SS unit.

[Theodor]

What for is this shield on the side, next to the spare wheels? Is it a part of the Stug, or something fallen from the building? If a part, why is it so small, protecting the spare parts???

[Von Strehmel]

What for is this shield on the side, next to the spare wheels? Is it a part of the Stug, or something fallen from the building? If a part, why is it so small, protecting the spare parts???

That is part of the side shelds that covered both side of the Stug. They were used to stop hollow charge weapons, by detenating them away for the armor. But they fell off often and PZ IIIs, IVs and Stugs and were hardly replaced.

[cbo]

That is part of the side shelds that covered both side of the Stug. They were used to stop hollow charge weapons, by detenating them away for the armor. But they fell off often and PZ IIIs, IVs and Stugs and were hardly replaced.

A bit of nitpicking, but the "skirts" - Schürzen - were not installed to stop hollow charge weapons, in fact they weren't even tested against such weapons prior to their installation. They were intended to stop the Soviet 14.5mm anti-tank rifle rounds from penetrating the thin sides of these tanks. They might have been usefull against hollow-charge weapons, but it was not the reason they were installed.

Claus B

[Von Strehmel]

But...

But they proved to work well in defeating hollow charge weapons. Secondly I never said that that was the reason they were originally installed for in 1943.

[cbo]

But they proved to work well in defeating hollow charge weapons. Secondly I never said that that was the reason they were originally installed for in 1943.

Point taken. Do you have any definate evidence that they were succesfull in defeating hollow charge weapons? There's been a lot of conjecture on the matter, but I dont recall ever seeing contemporary evidence suggesting that they actually worked vs Bazookas, PIATs or artillery HEAT shells.

[mietek]

Hi.

I remember that picture. I have it in the Polish book about Stug.
There is information that it is Stug aufs G, may 1945 just after the battle in Koenigsberg, Prussia (now Krolewiec, Russia). That Stug was produced the second part of 1944. No 20 it is Russian mark painted after the battle.

[Stirling]

schurzen ????

Cluas B whats your souce to say that skirting armour was designed to stop ATrifle's?
I'm not discrediting your theory I'd just like to know more
Also were the skirts on the side of hull 5mm and the skirts on turret side(e.g PzKfw IV) 8mm or was it vise versa
By the way I've seen photo's of mk IV's & stug's with holes blasted in their skirts from hollowcharge weapons
anti-tank rifles weren't widly used on western front but shirts were common
just my 2 cents

Stirling

[Stirling]

Oops my typing sucks "shirts were common" And so was skirting armour on tanks

[Radcollector]

Oops my typing sucks "shirts were common" And so was skirting armour on tanks

Hello,

Im just adding my 2 cents here regarding the side skirts (schuerzen) issue-Im not sure if you guys have read any of Thomas L Jentz (schiffer publishing) books on German armor,I have 4 of his books "Panzer Truppen" 1 and 2 ,German Panzers in WW2 and "Tank combat in North Africa" (great books by the way!) and he mentions in his books that the side skirts were designed to stop soviet AT rifles and it is my understanding that AT rifles were used alot by the Russians-I have also heard from many people that they were disigned to stop hollow charges-I tend to believe Jentz's theory,he studied and researched German armor way more than i have!

[Adrian Stevenson]

Soviet PTRS/PTRD 14.5mm A/T rifles

Here is a link to some good info on these Anti Tank rifles. I really want one of these, but they will not fit in my car

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/antitank.pdf

Cheers, Ade.

[cbo]

Cluas B whats your souce to say that skirting armour was designed to stop ATrifle's?
I'm not discrediting your theory I'd just like to know more

Yancy already pointed to the books by Thomas Jentz, but AFAIK, it was first aired by Jentz' mentor Walther Spielberger. The source is the documents from relevant agencies relating to the design and testing of the "skirts". According to these, the "skirts" were invented in order to protect the thin sides of these AFVs, particularily the thin and vertical lower hull armour. The "skirts" were tested against the Soviet 14.5mm AT-rifle and against high-explosive rounds but not against any form of HEAT projectiles.

So far - and I've discussed this with people for at least 8 years - no one have been able to provide a shred of evidence that the "skirts" had anything to do with protection against HEAT projectiles.

By the way I've seen photo's of mk IV's & stug's with holes blasted in their skirts from hollowcharge weapons anti-tank rifles weren't widly used on western front but shirts were common.

I'm glad you mention this as it relates to my favorite theory as to why the myth that the "skirts" were anti-HEAT shields developed in the first place.
The problem was that Western Allied intelligence bureaus didn't know what to make of them and offered the following explanations (1944/45):

1) to break up or deflect 20mm tungsten carbide core ammunition
2) to defeat hollow charge shells
3) to defeat the 14.7mm (sic) Russian antitank rifle
4) to defeat the American Bazooka

At some point, probably in the books about German armour comming out right after the war, the idea that the "skirts" were made as protection against HEAT made it into the litterature and there it tended to stick, being replicated again and again.
It is understandable, seen from a western perspective, that the anti-heat option was choosen - as you say, AT-rifles were hardly an issue in the west.

What people forgot (or wasn't willing to admit) at the time, was that the main driving force behind German armour development in WWII was combat on the eastern front. And here, the anti-tank rifle was a terrible nuisance. From 1942 onwards, they became plentifull (one Tiger came home from one particular engangement with 200+ hits from AT-rifles!) and combat reports show that they were effective in penetrating German AFVs.

Interestingly, when the Germans had a go at making add-on armour for the Panzer IV to protect against HEAT and sub-caliber projectiles (in 1942), they choose to arm the front of the tank, not the sides. They also ditched the idea because the armour they used tended to shatter on impact by HEAT projectiles and thus only protected against the first round.

As for the pictures you've seen of Schürzen penetrated by HEAT how could you tell? Can you post some of them? It would be interesting to see some evidence as to how the "skirts" actually worked against HEAT!

Claus B

[Stirling]

Neat post Claus

you really know your stuff. I dont have a scanner so can't give you any pictures (I know I'm lame ) of side skirts attacked by what I believe were hollow-charge weapons But, I came too my conclusion because of the amount on soot around the hole, caused by the intense heat perhaps? oh the tank (pzIV)wasn't Knocked out by the way

have a nice day
Stirling