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    #1

    Personnel For Panzer Abteilung

    Hello everyone!

    This is quite the strange question and I hope people do not mind me posing it. I am just wondering on how some personnel might find themselves either transferrd to or assigned to, a Panzer Abteilung.

    To explain the circumstances further so one might understand the possible situation that I am curious to, let us look for an example:

    Let's take the Leibstandarte for instance. In 1942 they were a Motorized Infantry Division. Then a Panzer Abteilung was formed. I realize that many of the personnel would be new recruits drawn from the various Replacement units. But, would there be other possibilites for sources for personnel?

    What would be the possibility for some personnel being transferred? Asking for a transfer? Let's say a soldier has driven an armoured car, halftrack or other vehicle, would the fact that he is already experienced in some sort of automotive aspect increase his likelihood of finding a transfer to a Panzer unit? Could personnel be transferred from the Aufklarung Abteilung or a Panzergrenadier Bataillon to the Panzer Abteilung?

    For another example, what about some of the new Panther and Tiger Abteilung? I realize a lot of the personnel came from existing units but were most of the other personnel all raw recruits? How were they chosen for a Panzer unit? Could one volunteer for a Panzer unit? If one already belonged to a unit what were the chances of being allowed a tranfer?

    I ask this because I have read some accounts or have heard accounts people have mentioned to me and have always wondered about how much truth there can be to some of these. Or, if there is truth, the reasoning behind some of these events.

    Thank you to anyone that can answer this somewhat confusing question! I am just trying to get my mind around this mess!

    Cheers,

    Jon
    Tags: None
    #2
    Originally posted by Jon
    Hello everyone!

    This is quite the strange question and I hope people do not mind me posing it. I am just wondering on how some personnel might find themselves either transferrd to or assigned to, a Panzer Abteilung.

    Cheers,

    Jon
    Hi Jon,
    I don't know if this was a "standard" way of filling new panzer formations, but I know some particulars about the buildup of the LSSAH Tiger units. When the initial Tiger company was formed as the 13. Kompanie of the Leibstandarte's panzer regiment, some of the members were transferred from the Sturmgeschützabteilung - Wittmann being the prime example. I believe others were transferred from the Aufklärungsabteilung. Some others may have been transferred to the new Tiger company from the existing panzer companies in the panzer regiment. I believe most of the personnel for the new 13. Kompanie were existing LSSAH personnel from one or another of the motorized formations; ie, not brand-new replacements. They all of course got extensive Tiger training. Note that when the 13. Kompanie was first formed Wittmann was a PzKw III commander in the recon platoon, and only got a Tiger later.

    In the LSSAH, the same thing happened when the 13. Kompanie was expanded to form s. SS-Pz.Abt. 101. Some members transferred from existing LSSAH companies: some from the panzer companies, some (including von Westernhagen, the Bn CO) from the Sturmgeschützabteilung, and elsewhere. As time went on, less-experienced replacements came from other sources. In the buildup before the Ardennes, s. SS-Pz.Abt. 501 had some untrained Luftwaffe replacements who had to get as much OJT as they could.

    Regards,
    Greg
    sigpicFacebook "Tigers in the Ardennes" book page
    www.facebook.com/TigersintheArdennes

    Comment

      #3
      And...

      ...SS were only volunteers.

      Comment

        #4
        Reply

        Hey Greg!

        Thank you for your answer! So, it looks like it was possible for a soldier to be transferred from the Aufklarung or other unit to the Panzer Abteilung. Like you said, not standard but certainly possible. For the new recruits, do you know of any aspects that might increase their chances of being assigned to a Panzer unit? Thank you again!

        Cheers,

        Jon

        Hey Asterix!

        I am sorry but this is not true. Not all Waffen SS were volunteers. After 1943 many recruits were conscripts or transfers from the Luftwaffe, even in the Leibstandarte. Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg, for another example, were composed of many conscripts and Hitlerjugend was composed of many ex-Hitler Jugend members that were "encouraged" to join the Waffen SS. Besides that, even after one volunteered one still has to be assigned to a certain unit within a Division or what have you.

        Also, I am speaking more of a transfer within a Division. For example from the Panzer Aufklarung Abteilung LSSAH to the Panzer Abteilung LSSAH. My apologies if I did not make my post clear.

        Cheers,

        Jon

        Comment

          #5
          Volunteers

          As far as I know, even if transferred from other units, all SS were volunteers: they had to ask (or at least accept) to be a Waffen SS.
          Some were probably pressed, of course, and others did choose that to avoid a worst lot, but the purpose of SS was to have highly motivated elite troups, so volunteers.

          Comment

            #6
            Hello Asterix,

            Yes, that was the purpose but after suffering many casualties the Waffen SS had to resort to many different methods to get manpower.

            But, if you won't take my word for it, here is a quote from page 196 of The Leibstandarte Volume III, written by Rudolf Lehmann, former Chief Of Staff of the Division. He is talking about the recent 2500 men from the Luftwaffe that were transferred to the Leibstandarte in May of 1943, just before the Kursk offensive:

            "In addition, the way in which these men had been treated played a role. They had all volunteered for the Luftwaffe. All had just been promoted to the Luftwaffe or had just received their Luftwaffe basic training when one day, without explanation, they had been loaded into trucks and delivered to the barracks of the Leibstandarte in Berlin-Lichterfelde. They had been given uniforms of the Leibstandarte and been told they had been transferred. After a few days of combat training on the southern exercise grounds they had been carted off to join field forces. Truly, this was unworthy treatment."

            Now, this shows that even in the Leibstandarte, men were transferred from the Luftwaffe or other areas when manpower was needed. They could not only rely on volunteers.

            Cheers,

            Jon

            Comment

              #7
              I agree with you that SS, because of heavy losses, tried to recruit as much as they could.
              Now, in your example, even the chief of staff is chocked by the way it has been done.
              Another example: when France was liberated, many of the "collaborateurs" (French people who helped Germans) escaped in Germany.
              Some former Milice or Gestapo members where enroled in Waffen SS Charlemagne: they could choose between staying in France or volunteer for SS.
              Either be killed in France today, on the east front a bit later, or later in France, as it was evident that war was lost for Germany .

              Comment

                #8
                Other examples of troops or even of whole units being transferred against their will to the Waffen SS can be found at these links:

                The Volunteer Begian Walloon Brigade was originally under Army command but in June of 1943 it was transferred to the Wafen SS.

                http://www.wssob.com/028divwal.html

                The 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions were created using many new recruits that were from the latest conscripts, troops that would usually have gone to the Army.

                http://www.wssob.com/009divhoh.html

                http://www.wssob.com/010divfru.html

                For more on the 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions see Sons Of The Reich by Michael Reynolds.

                Cheers,

                Jon

                Comment

                  #9
                  Forced in to WSS

                  I have a good Freind (Aged 82).
                  He were enlisted to the Luftwaffe i 1943.
                  In summer 1944 he was unwilling transfered to Wehrmacht and after some Weeks, again unwilling transfered to WSS - Hohenstaufen.
                  There were a lot of his comrads from the Luftwaffe there unwillingly was transfered to Hohenstaufen, Totenkopf, Das Reich and other SS-formations.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Sorry. He was first, end of July 1944, transfered to the German Army: Gren. Ersatz Batt. 455 in Löbau. From there, Aug. 44, to SS N.A.A.2 in Unna and from there to 1. SS Pz N.A. 9 (Hohenstaufen)

                    Comment

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