Saratov Stug Update

[Theodor]

Can not find photos. I guess they will show it when it is ready /or just I can not find the photos /. But for sure not crashed and not flying. And as was said, I hope it will not fly!!!

[RTY]

They - who?
How can you prove that somebody has the same FW as at the video?

[Theodor]

They: Flying Heritage Collection, Seattle, Wahington state, USA

The whole community interested about warbirds /vintage aircraft/ know, that it is the same plane, seen on the video. This is just enough for me.

[Soldaten]

Guys, American museum's (espically the government controlled) have not done enough to preserve the German tanks sitting outside their museum's. European's are starting to make a hard push in the right direction of getting their armor back into shape. I live in the USA and love being a citizen, but the museum's are getting their budgets cut here, (most likely the waste of money going into the Iraq conflict is causing this), but whatever the case maybe, the USA has got to start spending the large sums of money to restore the history that is sitting outside and rusting away at these museums!

Rob

[Anders S]

Hi guys,

Here is some information about the Fw 190 seen in the video.

(I've "stolen" the pics and text from another forum)

"Fw190 A5 White A of 4./JG54

This Focke-wulf 190 was manufactured in April 1943, originally as an A-5 variant and supplied with the full work number 0151227. It was the 415th A-5 constructed from batch 0150812 - 0151793 and manufactured by the parent factory of Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau GmbH at Bremen.
Interestingly, W.Nr 1227, seems not to have been manufactured as a straight A5 variant. A standard A-5 was fitted with outer MG/FF 20mm cannons and was completed with the central wheel well covers. On W.Nr 1227, the outer MG/FF cannons had not been fitted on the production line, the central wheel well covers had also been removed and in its place a central ETC501 bomb rack had been fitted.
By April 1943 production Focke-wulf were still behind in the production of the F-2 variant. Focke-wulf therefore continued to factory modify A-5 variants to accommodate the slipping production schedule. Focke-wulf 190 A-5, W.Nr 1227 is seen generally as being originally manufactured as an A-5, but became a factory modified example and so making it a Fw190 A-5/U3.
If it had been constructed on its own production run, the completed W.Nr 1227 would have been known as a F-2 variant; a total of 271 F-2's and F-2/tp's were produced upto May 1943.
On reaching the end of its production run, W.Nr 1227 was painted with the individual Stammkennzeichen (RLM block codes) of DG+HO.

Movements
In 1942 the German High command had the idea of rotating units in the Eastern Front with those in the Western Front. With this idea, the original plan was to rotate the whole of JG54 in the East with JG26 in the West in early 1943. The first and only units to return were 4./JG54 of the II Gruppe and the whole of III/JG54 who returned to France in mid February. In return I/JG26 and 7./JG26 of the III/JG26 went to Russia where JG26 operated for a while under the command of JG54.
The 4./JG54 pilots and ground crew returned West to act as a nucleus to help build up the new IV/JG54, whilst pulling in resources from other units. Due to a shortage of Fw190's, the 10, 11 & 12 staffeln of the new IV Gruppe were worked up with new Bf109 G-3 and G-4. At the end of April the task for 4./JG54 was complete and with a build up of Russian forces around Leningrad, 4./JG54 were on their way back to the Northern Front to join the rest of the II Gruppe again.
W.Nr 1227 was flown via several bases from an aircraft pool and most probably delivered fresh to JG54 by a new squadron pilot. Around mid May she arrived at the former Russian airbase of Siwerskaja to join the ranks of other Fw190's being operated by I and II Gruppes of JG54.
Although the yellow theatre markings might have been painted prior to delivery to 4./JG54, the original camouflage was painted over. It was standard procedure to paint over the factory finished colours of RLM74 Gray Green and RLM75 Gray Violet which covered the top surface. The sides on this A5 which had a base of RLM02 gray with mottling of RLM74 and RLM75 going down to the RLM76 Light Blue to the underside. As these colours were unsuitable for the Leningrad area of the Russian Front, JG54 applied a unique three colour combination. JG54 were known to experiment with different colour combinations. The colour combination generally followed the original demarcation lines and consisted of a dark green, brown violet and tan (sand) which was more suited to the forests areas of Northern Russia. ('new' colours as listed in Ken Merricks book).
To this was applied yellow theatre bands to the underside of the wing tips, outside of the lower cross, to the lower quadrant of the rudder, around the fuselage cross and to the lower engine cowlings. The last area to be touch up was to the underside blue to hide the last two remaining letters of the factory codes (the others were under the yellow wing tips) and to apply the tactical letter of a 'White A'.
To say this marking was unusual would be correct. No surviving JG54 pilots can recall flying with letter markings, having always recorded numbers within the log books. During the summer of 1943, no horizontal band denoting the II Gruppe was added to aircraft of 4./JG54 either.
At the beginning of July 1943, 4./JG54 were back in operations. At the same time, IV/JG54 had moved to Jesau on there way to Northern Russia. When the new IV Gruppe reached Russia in the middle of July, the 4./JG54 were again subordinated to the new Gruppe. As the 10 staffel of the IV Gruppe carried white numbers, white letters seem to have been applied to the 4./JG54 who were acting as a semi autonomous ground attack unit.

The loss of Fw190 A5/U3 W.Nr 1227.
On Monday 19th July 1943 Fw190 A-5 W.Nr 1227 'White A' went on a mission carrying a SC250 (550Ib) bomb. Taking off from Siwerskaja, on what was probably a hot summer day, 'White A' headed for the Front line which was only fifteen or so minutes flight time away. Crossing the front line over the Dvina River, the Fw190, flying with another crossed it and headed East. Whilst behind enemy lines, in an area called Voibakala, the 'Rotte' attacked an armoured train and reportedly suffered damage from flak. The loss report indicates the Fw190 crash landed due to this damage, although none was located on the airframe. It Fw190 suffered a catastrophic failure of the BMW801, caused by a rag -sabotage is suspeced as it was a new engine was fitted a few days before). The Fw190 was recorded as being 100% lost in the map reference co-ordinates of Pl.Qu.20124. This grid system based on 1:200,000 maps was used to identify crash sites, possibly for salvage, recovery of missing pilots or as the best way of identifying an area consisting of unpronounceable Russian towns, villages and large areas of forests and lakes. The more numbers the Pl.Qu. reference gives, the smaller the area of the location. A key to this 'code', would help identify literally dozens of possible recoveries within Russia!!
The pilot Feldwebel Paul Rätz survived the crash landed behind enemy lines. He removed his leather flying helmet and retrieved the first air kit from the rear fuselage and is thought to have headed West back to the front line only a dozen or so miles from the crash site. He was undoubtedly captured by the Russians and interned although the Luftwaffe loss report still class him as 'Vermißt' (missing) in action.

Notes
The fourth Staffeln of Jagdgeschwader 54 'Grunherz' only seemed to have carried this unusual white letter combination for a few months through the summer and autumn of 1943. On returning to join the II Gruppe again, the staffel reverted to the number system again. There are only two other known 4/JG54 loses where Fw190's have been recorded as lost with these distinctive markings.

• On 8th July 1943 the relatively new Fw190 A-5, W.Nr 1520 'White D' was 100% crashed whilst taking off with the pilot killed.
• On 23rd August 1943 Fw190 A-4, W.Nr 5808 'White B' was classed as 100% lost when it crash landed due to flak damage at location Pl.Qu.18212. The pilot was injured but returned safely to his unit.

Found in silver birch forest 1989. Recovered 1991. Doug/David Arnold and now Paul Allen.

This is a very high % original aircraft.
Everything that could be reused has been reused.
The original 6 spoke sand cast wheels are a site to see.

Lets just say it is an amazing aircraft.

[Anders S]

A year or so ago...

[Anders S]

[RTY]

To Anders S

Thank You for photos!

[Theodor]

I think it is a GREAT waste orf history, that they have removed the original paint and restoring it! Some things must be simply left alone! If they want a brand-new looking bird, they could take one of the FlugWerk copies. This machine should be preserved as found! Cleaned a little and preservation done to some parts - and kept as found. But of course, this is just my opinion, the owner has a different view for the aircraft.

[Mike Bollow]

'I think it is a GREAT waste of history, that they have removed the original paint'

My thoughts exactly. I would pay to see it in it's AS-FOUND state with all the original paint, etc. but what they have done with it is the fundeamental difference between "airplane people" and historians.

I do several airshows a year, and we set up a WW2 RAF display. The people that own these priceless WW2 planes are usually eccentric millionaires that don't give a **** about history. These guys simply want to be able to boast that they own something incredibly rare.

What's worse, is these 'eccentric' millionaires more often than not crash and destroy these irreplaceable planes! Think of the HE-111 that we lost a couple years ago?

As you can tell, I am NOT A FAN of restoring these to flying condition.

Thanks for the pics and info though Anders!

Just my 2 cents - Mike

[RTY]

The iron is more important than a paint.
If the care about original paint can do harm to the metal parts, this paint must be removed.

Usually, restorators are leaving the most surviving part of original paint as a sample for the future reseaches.

[Aave Johns]

I think it is a GREAT waste orf history, that they have removed the original paint and restoring it! Some things must be simply left alone! If they want a brand-new looking bird, they could take one of the FlugWerk copies. This machine should be preserved as found! Cleaned a little and preservation done to some parts - and kept as found. But of course, this is just my opinion, the owner has a different view for the aircraft.

I guess it depends on the condition of the paint. The Australian War Memorial has an Me 109 in its original paint scheme, looks a little rough but doesn't appear to be any corrosion. I think it is the only example in the world in such a condition.

It is unlikely to deteriate much, it is housed in an section of the Memorial that is undercover and air-conditioned. They have mounted it making an attack on a Lancaster, G for George, which is also an complete aircraft.

Regards;

Johnsy

[cossack1648]

With restoring planes to airworthy condition new paint is not everything that is renewed. Airworthy aircraft has to be safe to fly, so most of the parts are new, like hydraulic and elecric installations, rubber parts, gaskets, some of the skin and probably load bearing parts. These flying wwII planes are mostly replicas with original parts used as a template to make new parts.

Also during restoration planes are completely dissasambled till last rivet and screw. Then it is decided which original part can be reused and which has to be remade. It's like taking a tunic, removing not only all insignia, but all the threads that keep tunic as one and then putting it back together replacing some more damaged pieces of fabric with new ones.

Engines undergo same procedure plus updating to modern standards. Most wwII engines for example weren't oil tight and were consuming oil. Modern engines don't do that and restored wwII engines are the same.

Many of those restored planes have modern avionics and cockpits that don't resamble originals at all.

[Billy B]

So what is the cost of restoring such a plane to “like new” condition?
What would be the cost of building one from scratch ? Are there any technical plans out there?
I simply can't believe that it is cheaper to rebuild a wreck to flying condition, than to build one from scratch. If they build a short run of these 5 -10 prices would be even cheaper.

[cossack1648]

I have no idea about the costs, but I think it is a lot. I had a book about restoration of a P38. That wasn't a wreck, simply plane that sit somewhere till 80's. I assume that better the condition, then more original parts they can use. I think their reasoning is that even if they have 20 or 30% of the original parts, then it is a restoration of original aircraft.