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    #1

    I have a raging debate going ...

    ... and I need everyone's help.

    Did the 21 PD at Normandy use the French tanks in combat on the first few days of the invasion, specifically - or not specifically - around the river Orne? While there were some on hand in the inventory of the II abteilung of the PR 22, there is some doubt whether they were used in combat. (Some believe the crews were transferred back to Germany to train on Panthers, others that they fought for a few days, then transferred, others ...)

    And now for the bonus question, does anyone have a picture of a knocked out French tank that had been in service of the 21 PD? That would be icing on the cake one way or another. Note that I have no horse in this race, so it doesn't really matter to me if there were French tanks used in combat by the 21 PD or not.

    Thanks in advance for your help, and now back to your regularly scheduled channel.
    Cheers,

    Bill Moran
    Tags: None
    #2
    Could not find a pic of a knocked out French tank for you but on page 232 of Heimdals '21. Panzer Division' there is a photo of a Somua S35 of 5/22 being unloaded from a railcar. It was said to be one of 9 that it had along with 5 PzIV h.

    Comment

      #3
      That is true

      Hi Michael,

      Thanks for posting. I've seen the pictures, and in the debate, there is no doubt that the 21 PD had such vehicles. The debate is centering on whether the Germans actually used them in combat against the British paratroopers. Accounts mention German "light tanks", and since the French tanks are in the inventory of the 21 PD, some are assuming that this means the vehicles were engaged in combat. Others note that the second abteilung was transferred to Germany to re-equip and train with Panthers.

      Doesn't like there is concrete proof one way or the other. Thanks again for the help.
      Cheers,

      Bill Moran

      Comment

        #4
        My information says that MOST foreign/captured tanks were collected in so-called 'Beute Panzerabteilungen'.

        During operation 'Overlord', the Germans had 2 of those 'Abteilungen' in France/Normandy;

        -Panzer Erzats und Ausbau Abteilung 100-
        They had 3 kompanies with a number of 46 captured tanks.
        I don't know which types of tanks, though.

        -Panzer Abteilung 206-
        They had 2 kompanies with a total number 46 captured tanks.
        Again, I don't know which types.

        They were both designated 'Heeresreserve'.
        The 21. Pz.Div., according to my info, had Pz.Rgt. 22 with 2 abt. with 4 Pz IV kompanies each. The 21. Pz.Div. was re-inforced with Pz.Kp (FKL)315 with 10 StuG's.
        This brings the 21.Pz.Div. to a total strength of:
        4 Pz. III
        21 Pz. IV (kurz)
        96 Pz. IV (lang)
        12 FlakPz.38
        2 PzBefWg
        and 10 Stug's from Pz.Kp. 315.

        I hope this helps...

        Comment

          #5
          The Somua was covered in foiliage. That would indicate a post June 6th deployment.

          Comment

            #6
            Somua S-35

            According to "Les Panzers" Edition Heimdal - Normandie 1944 -

            French tanks:
            Somua S-35 - Pzkpfw 35 S
            Renault R-35 - Pzkpfw 35 R
            Hotchkiss H-39 - Pzkpfw 39 H

            The following units had French tanks:
            Pz. aus. u. ers. abt 100
            Pz abt 206
            and almost certain:
            Pz abt 205
            Pz abt 213

            On the moment of invasion the II/Pz Rgt 22 who had also large amount of Somua's the tanks were replaced with PzKfw IV type B and C.

            Perhaps the didn't used them for battle, but to make identifying easier for other members, here's a picture of the Somua:

            Jeroen
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #7
              Some information

              Some information :

              PzAbt 206 was equipped with 20 H39, 10 S35, 6B1Bis (3 Flamm), 2 R35

              Pz Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abt was equipped with 19 R35, 1 S35, 8 H39, 1 B1Bis, 1 PzIII.

              Those were only...ersatz! It looks like a PzAbt, but it is not...

              II/192 PzGr of 21 Pz Div is leaving at 0330, supported by three 75mm guns probably on H39 chassis (according to Paul Carell).

              II Abt. of 21PzDiv was in Normandy during D Day. It was ready for some night training during the night of 5/6th, when put on alert.

              I abt left at 6AM, II at 9AM…for the North east, to fight against paratroopers.

              Just after Caen, 22nd is rerouted to the beaches, to support I/192PzGr, except 4 Kompanie. PzGr reached the coast between Sword and Juno. But PzReg 22, delayed because of the rerouting, is stopped by Staffordshire Yeomanry, and cannot reach the PzGr.

              I could not find any picture of French destroyed tank, but II Abt of PzReg 22 was equipped with 15 Pz IVH, 6 Pz IV B or C and 32 to 35 S35. There were probably some damaged.

              Sources : Rolf Stoves and Eric Lefevre, cité in « Normandie 1944, le choc des blindés » by Yves Buffetaut

              Hope this helps

              Comment

                #8
                Great. Thanx Asterix! Now I can finally complete my information.

                Comment

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