Indirect Fire?

[Marc Garlasco]

Here is one for the ages.

I am going to Lebanon to investigate the Lebanese Army using M-48s in the indirect-fire mode. Can they be accurate enough to descriminate a target or is armor used as artillery indiscriminate or just not recommended? Any information appreciated.

If you are a tanker I would love to talk about this offline.

Marc

[Gene]

Marc,

There are a lot of variables to consider with a 40 year old tank. Many were regunned from a 90mm tube to a 105mm, fire control systems have been upgraded and modernized, different ammunition (date of manufacture, lot numbers, etc). Basically no two tanks this old will likely be the same and thus have disparate ballistic performance. How old are the tubes? How clean are they? How good is the guy pulling the trigger? How good is the guy doing the range finding? A lot of information needs to be factored in before relative accuracy can be determined.

Gene

[Don D.]

We used tanks the same way during the Korean War. If you are going for area fire it is a good substitue for real artillery. If you are going for a pinpoint target good luck.

[Marc Garlasco]

Gene,

Good point. Their Army is quite poorly trained...

If anyone has a US Armor contact that would be appreciated. I will call Knox today.

Marc

[Jim McCauley]

Hello Marc,

My Dad crewed M48A1s in the late 50s early 60s in Germany. He has told me that indirect fire was part of their normal training. Sometimes going so far as to put the tanks nose up in a revetment to get a higher angle of elevation on the guns.

Best regards.

Jim

[SurvivingPanzer]

We used tanks the same way during the Korean War. If you are going for area fire it is a good substitue for real artillery. If you are going for a pinpoint target good luck.

+1 for that. Area fire with High Explosive will do in a pinch but even with a spotter it is hard to make the small adjustments needed to zero in on a target.

[Marc Garlasco]

So you guys are saying good in the open field, not so good in a dense area where militants and civilians intermingle...thanks!

[Greg]

So you guys are saying good in the open field, not so good in a dense area where militants and civilians intermingle...thanks!

Marc,

As a former U.S. Army tanker who never fired in indirect mode, I would still say your assessment is right. The M48-series tanks had a gunner's quadrant that was attached to the breech and used to calculate main gun elevation for indirect fire mode. It was used along with the main gun "firing tables" that addressed range, etc for different types of rounds. You could fire the tank in indirect fire mode, but I would say that the accuracy would not be good enough to strike specific targets in an urban area.

I'm drawing this from memory of the M60-series tanks, but like I said I never fired in indirect mode. Maybe some other old tankers here have.

Best,
Greg

[SurvivingPanzer]

Is their any instance of German Panzers being used in direct fire? I know Shermans were used in this mode during the war.

[Aave Johns]

Here is one for the ages.

I am going to Lebanon to investigate the Lebanese Army using M-48s in the indirect-fire mode. Can they be accurate enough to descriminate a target or is armor used as artillery indiscriminate or just not recommended? Any information appreciated.

If you are a tanker I would love to talk about this offline.

Marc

I'm not a tanky, but I have worked on naval gun systems for 19 years. Gene covered most points and one that I would consider as crucial is barrel erosion. Every round fired causes wear and the lighter the consruction the shorter the life. I would imagine that their technical skills are not the greatest, and if they don't have an adequate supply system or technical workshops that are equipped with tooling to resleeve a barrel, I would say that the barrels are likely to be well past their servicable life. Obviously the more worn the barrel, the less accurate the round. It will also affect the range as gases will start to escape around the projectile.

Regards;

Johnsy

[SurvivingPanzer]

I'm not a tanky, but I have worked on naval gun systems for 19 years. Gene covered most points and one that I would consider as crucial is barrel erosion. Every round fired causes wear and the lighter the consruction the shorter the life. I would imagine that their technical skills are not the greatest, and if they don't have an adequate supply system or technical workshops that are equipped with tooling to resleeve a barrel, I would say that the barrels are likely to be well past their servicable life. Obviously the more worn the barrel, the less accurate the round. It will also affect the range as gases will start to escape around the projectile.

Regards;

Johnsy

I think that the type of round is relevant to the conversation. the gases escaping past a 15 inch naval round is significantly more than a 75 mm or 88mm tank round(though I guess proportionally I suppose it would be the same). What is the operating life for a 14-15-16 inch naval barrel (or even a five inch)?

[Aave Johns]

I think that the type of round is relevant to the conversation. the gases escaping past a 15 inch naval round is significantly more than a 75 mm or 88mm tank round(though I guess proportionally I suppose it would be the same). What is the operating life for a 14-15-16 inch naval barrel (or even a five inch)?

Makes no difference if it is 12.7mm or a 16 inch barrel, the principle is the same. Both us (navy) and the army are very stringent on barrel wear, and as the we use the US 76mm and 5 inch in the RAN, we use your militaries manuals and recommendation for determining the life of a barrel. SW300-BB-GTP-010 Serviceability of Naval Gun Barrels is our reference, I don't have it at hand at the moment, but I think it is produced by Dahlgren.

I will double check these figures when I get back to work on Tuesday, but off the top of my head;

12.7 (or .50 cal) 5000 rounds

40mm 3000 rounds

76mm 800 rounds

5 inch 500 rounds

These barrels are checked with a bore gauge at regular intervals based on time (annual inspection) and the amount of rounds fired, whichever is reached first.

With regards to gases escaping, a copper driving band bites into the grooves (the lands being the high point) and seals the barrel and aids spin. It is the bottom of the groove where corrosion tends to form and this creates pitting which adds to the wear. I can't comment on smooth-bore barrels, that is outside my scope of experiance. The pressure put on the barrel is approximately 50 000 pounds per square inch every time a round is fired.

The army has similar checks and balances for there arty and tank barrels, and now that we have the Abrams, once again we use US guidance, experiance and lessons learned. All our ORDALTS (ordnance alterations) come from Dahlgren as we keep our systems updated to the same level as the country of origin.

Regards;

Johnsy

[keifer kahn]

Crewed west german leopards for 8 years and indirect fire support was part of normal doctrine.It was called in and controlled like normal artillery support utilising HESH.
Accuracy was dictated by grid co-ordinates and the ability of observer calling in fire support.

[Marc Garlasco]

First reports were innacurate. They never took the M-48s out and are using T-55s instead for this. Firing fairly regularly in the indirect fire mode...