Allied Aircraft vs. Panzers

[michael kenny]

Interesting tit-bit in the new Villers book just published by Heimdal. It appears that 2 of the Tigers knocked out in Villers Bocage were towed out of the town and thinly disguised to act as 'decoys' for Allied Aircraft. How often was this the norm?

[cbo]

I dont recall if this have been posted before, but it does adress the problem at hand with regards to the effectiveness of airborne weaponry, so here goes anyway (comments by John Salt):

WO 291/2357 Rocket Typhoons.
This report is dated 12 June 1945. The expected probability of hits on different targets using RPs is given as:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width=568 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Target

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Dimensions

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="20%">

% hits

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Small gun position

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

5' diameter

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="20%">

0.2

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Panther tank

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

22'6" × 10'9" × 9'10"

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="20%">

0.5

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Large gun position

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

10' diameter

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="20%">

0.8

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Army hut

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

60' × 30' × 20'

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="20%">

2.8

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

Large building

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="40%">

120' × 54' × 50'

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="20%">

10.0

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
"Among the hundreds of abandoned and knocked out tanks that have been examined, no instance has been recorded of a tank that has been hit by R.P. and escaped major damage."

RP are very effective on guns (20mm guns are blown to pieces), tanks, barns and huts. Brick houses have a large hole knocked in them and "considerable havoc wrought inside". Anti-personnel effects are limited, as the rocket tends to bury itself, and on concrete structures and thick masonry such as churches the damage inflicted in superficial.

The morale effects of rocket attack appear considerable. Enemy PWs report that all personnel except flak gunners hide from aircraft from 1 to 10 minutes after the completion of an attack, expecting the attackers to return for a second strafing pass.

"It appears quite definite that it is the nature of the attack that upsets the Germans and not the physical damage which it causes."

RP Typhoons are also reported to have a considerable heartening effect on friendly troops.

[cbo]

Deleted

[Matt L]

This is funny. It is exactly the same link I posted 05-14-2003, 10:40 PM to which you responded (on 05-15-2003, 02:46 AM): ...
Claus B

My apologies Claus- I hope you can understand that in the 6 months or so between yours and Milo's posts, given all the 'other' material that has crept into this thread in that time, I had forgotten that I'd seen it.

Matt

[Matt L]

Interesting tit-bit in the new Villers book just published by Heimdal. It appears that 2 of the Tigers knocked out in Villers Bocage were towed out of the town and thinly disguised to act as 'decoys' for Allied Aircraft. How often was this the norm?

That is very interesting Michael- given the obviously high regard in which the Germans held Allied Jabos, it wouldn't surprise me at all if this wasn't an isolated incident...

Matt

[cbo]

My apologies Claus- I hope you can understand that in the 6 months or so between yours and Milo's posts, given all the 'other' material that has crept into this thread in that time, I had forgotten that I'd seen it.

Matt

No need to apologize - I just found it humerous

Claus B

[michael kenny]

Again from the latest Villers book from Heimdal this Tiger is described by civilian eye-witnesses as having been hit by rockets from hedge-hopping aircraft or artillery fire. (Yes I know it is two reasons!)

[Gump]

interesting subject...

Shame that it didn't get discussed very well.....

The question was whether allied aircraft armed with .50 cal or rockets were effective at eliminating german tanks.

allow me to add a little blatant speculation into the conversation to perhaps move the discussion off of the rather dry and surely flawed documentation trail.

Anyone who has watched gun camera footage will surely agree that the likelyhood of a direct and killing hit by rockets is very remote.... even a sustained burst of .50 cal would be difficult ..... and unless these projectiles hit a vulnerable location they were probably ineffective.

This leaves us wondering how the tank could be knocked out by the plane....
I suspect that the definition and image of a killing hit is the source of the problem.

On the western front in particular the only thing needed in most cases was a simple immobilization to result in the elimination of a tank. Aircraft eliminations of soft supply and recovery vehicles made the difference in that theater.

Anyone who has seen the top of a tank from that period should have noticed the very thin usually grated or fan mounted engine covering... It doesn't take much imagination to see that a single .50 cal bullet would have no trouble making it into the engine compartment.... where thin injector lines and wires are easily destroyed. Or a close proximity HE explosion could easily damage wheels and tracks, rendering the tank immobile.

In most cases this damage would be considered normal maintenance for a fighting vehicle... but for Germany at that time it was the end of that vehicle. When every supply truck with spare parts, fuel and ammo is being destroyed before it gets to you it makes little sense to remain and defend your tank as the russian tanker was expected to do under pain of death.

I would suggest that the information is right there in the cited article... the table that shows the vast majority of tanks eliminated by crew destruction or abandoned.... not to mention the severe demoralization of those crews caused by the constant air harrassment.

[Gump]

Panther rear deck

Here is a photo of the panther rear deck...notice the thin doors and chickenwire grating... not hard to imagine a .50 cal slug getting in there and ricocheting around......

go to the 5th page of the Jagdpanther Photos

http://jagdtiger.de/index2.htm

Also I believe that the mysterious white phosophorus projectiles would be simple .50 cal tracers.... they are very capable of igniting fuel from broken lines.

I would think that this type of damage would almost go unnoticed by someone inspecting the vehicle afterwords... particularly if the tank had been blown up and burned out by the crew or advancing infantry.

[panzerboy39]

Axis armour devastated by allied air power

It is common knowledge and a very well documented fact that Allied air-power was a dominant factor in German armour KIA's. The heavier tanks were especially vulnerable because of larger size and slower mobility. Most were caught in transit on roads or on railways, favorite targets of opportunity for the allied fighter-bomber pilots. It is because of this that the Germans chose to move most of their armoured assets during the night in the d-day conflict to avoid unecessary losses to allied airpower. The fact that the Germans chose to modify their armoured mobilization strategy due to overwhelming Allied air-power is dramatic proof of success to the deadly allied jabos. It is true that jabo rockets were unaccurate but when a flight of four P-38 lightnings let loose with their full compliment (4x8=32) of un-guided rockets there was a good chance that some hit on or very near to the target. That's quite a deadly salvo vs a single german tank!

Thats my two cents,

panzerboy39

Ps- ya, I spell armour with 'ou'. sorry but I'm Canadian eh' and I speak the kings english, not 'american'. variety is truly the spice of life eh!