Michael Wittmann

[kass]

Hi guys...
Just a quick question:
Was M.W. actually the highest scoring tank ace of WWII?
I recently read about one Heer guy who had more kills than M.W.
Only I cant remember the name.
??
There were many occasions (propaganda) when Waffen-SS troops were much more "highlighted" than Heer.

K.

[MarioL]

Kurt Knispel from sPzAbt503

[kass]

thanks

[Greg]

And if we're talking about tank aces in any army, SSgt Lafayette Pool of the US 3rd Armored Division is said to have destroyed 258 German vehicles with his Sherman from June through August 1944. Hard to believe...

http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_..._ordnance1.htm

Greg

[afrika]

And if we're talking about tank aces in any army, SSgt Lafayette Pool of the US 3rd Armored Division is said to have destroyed 258 German vehicles with his Sherman from June through August 1944. Hard to believe...

http://www.3ad.org/wwii_heroes/pool_..._ordnance1.htm

Greg

The interesting thing here is that the "vehicles" destroyed by Lafayette and indeed other aces are not specified. I would hesitate to call an MG armed half track a kill that would cater to an ace ranking. I'm not talking just about Lafayette, but German tank experts (I'm not keen on the word "ace") as well. Nothing can deny the fact that Knispel and Lafayette and Witttman were specially skilled and maybe naturally so, but were their scores bumped up with softer targets? I would be sceptical that ALL their kills could have "bit back".

The same would apply to air aces, there is nothing too skilled about shooting down a Junkers laden with helpless troops or a DC3. Sure, they may have had one or two defending MGs, but no manouvreability whatsoever. Its a bit of a one way fight, similar to cracking open an APC (well, one of the Fourties style APC's anyway) that only has manouvre as its defence.

I guess my point is, should only those vehicles capable of defending themselves or capable of inflicting simillar damage, be able to be added to a score like this?
Any thoughts on this?

Oh yeah, I am deliberately ignoring the "ethical" side of "they are all the enemy, what does it matter" idea, so just treat this as a technical viewpoint only!!!!

Steve

[kass]

The interesting thing here is that the "vehicles" destroyed by Lafayette and indeed other aces are not specified. I would hesitate to call an MG armed half track a kill that would cater to an ace ranking. I'm not talking just about Lafayette, but German tank experts (I'm not keen on the word "ace") as well. Nothing can deny the fact that Knispel and Lafayette and Witttman were specially skilled and maybe naturally so, but were their scores bumped up with softer targets? I would be sceptical that ALL their kills could have "bit back".

good point
In the picture I have seen, were the British 7th Armoured Diviseion was destroyed on Hill 213 over Villers Boccage, by the Panzer Lehr Division, I saw only burned halftracks and vechiles (trucks?)


U should be suspicious and objective when concearning these things.
the reason I brought this question up (highest scoring tank ace ), because in estonian forum there was some guys who claimed W-SS was like the only "bestofthebest" and no other there was

have to look things from an objective point of wiev

[Gran Sasso]

[QUOTE=kass]good point
In the picture I have seen, were the British 7th Armoured Diviseion was destroyed on Hill 213 over Villers Boccage, by the Panzer Lehr Division, I saw only burned halftracks and vechiles (trucks?)

Images of destroyed tanks by M. Wittmann. Some of the enemy tanks managed to shot back and even fired first but the projectiles failed to penetrate the armour of his Tiger I.

[Gran Sasso]

More victims.

[Gran Sasso]

... and more.

[Gran Sasso]

Rue nationale 175 Villers-Bocage - (HIll 213) Caen "then and now".

The official brit. report about fightings on 13th of june 1944 reads: "... lost more than 30 tanks plus numerous other vehicles during the fighting in and around Villers-Bocage...". Of course some were shot down by other Tigers / Pz. IV during the extensive fighting that took all day long, but most were killed by Wittmann himself.

[kass]

great pictures...
indeed, I didn`t know before there was tanks also in that column

[German George]

The kills are as far as I remeber only fighting vehicles, and in Wittmann's case armoured ones.

The kills for soft vehicles or even horse drown carts where nowhere acredited!

These do not really count in terms of fighting value, and for Propaganda reasons, I do not see any value at all in mentioning them...

[afrika]

The kills are as far as I remeber only fighting vehicles, and in Wittmann's case armoured ones.

The kills for soft vehicles or even horse drown carts where nowhere acredited!

These do not really count in terms of fighting value, and for Propaganda reasons, I do not see any value at all in mentioning them...

I wonder if this is the case for the Lafayette kills? I agree it is pointless, but I would expect there to be some form of number bumping to "counter-propaganda" the German experts scores. It would make sense to create an instant hero to give the Allies something to talk about. Not that I'm saying this is the case with Lafayette.

I am also a bit sceptical that this form of number fixing did not go on with German experts either.

[kristensen]

Dear Sirs.

Tiger I information Center at http://www.alanhamby.com/aces.html has this list making WIttmann no. 5:

Name - Kills - Unit

Kurt Knispel - 168 - s.Pz.Abt. 503
Walter Schroif - 161 - s.SS-Pz.Abt. 102
Otto Carius - 150+ - s.Pz.Abt. 502
Johannes (Hans) Bolter - 139+ - s.Pz.Abt. 502
Michael Wittmann - 138 - s.SS-Pz.Abt. 101

[Bobwirtz]

...