Is this a Mark III H...can't really tell

[Laurence Strong]

And here's the last production series of the StuG III the "ausf G"

[Tribley]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, first post!

Here's what I think the photo's are:

First photo:

Panzer IV F1 -- note that the barrel is not visible in the photo so it is not an F2 or later (unless the gun has been shot off or destroyed)*; Also the tank in the photo has an armored overhang just above the turret side doors -- they were not mounted on the Mk. IV E turret, but were on the following models.
*If you have the Peter Chamberlain and Hilary Doyle book: "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII" note plate 302 on pg.96 where there is a photo from nearly the same angle showing the long barreled main gun clearly visible at all elevations.

Second Photo:

Panzer III H -- note the armored box for the smoke candles, common to the Mk. III H. On the Mk. III G and previous models the smoke candles were mounted on the rear of the tank without the armored box to protect them (the box on the rear of the tank with the Balkankreuz). On the Mk III J and following models the smoke candles were mounted behind the rear armored plate. The tank also has the later model cupola, not introduced until mid-way through production of the Mk. III G and on following models. I have also cleaned up the image with an editing tool and it appears that there may be a frame aerial mounted on the rear engine deck; the tank could be a command model of the Mk. III H.

-Jordan

[TMurray]

might even be a Pz Ppfw III Ausf M?

[Laurence Strong]

Second Photo:

Panzer III H -- note the armored box for the smoke candles, common to the Mk. III H. On the Mk. III G and previous models the smoke candles were mounted on the rear of the tank without the armored box to protect them (the box on the rear of the tank with the Balkankreuz). On the Mk III J and following models the smoke candles were mounted behind the rear armored plate. The tank also has the later model cupola, not introduced until mid-way through production of the Mk. III G and on following models. I have also cleaned up the image with an editing tool and it appears that there may be a frame aerial mounted on the rear engine deck; the tank could be a command model of the Mk. III H.

-Jordan

Hi Jordan
First of all wecome to the forum. you have better eye's than I do .

And the bold part of your statement would account, for the Arty "250" coming along behind.

[TMurray]

guys I think the tank number is '297' if you blow the photo up, does that help?

[Tribley]

Laurence, I may not have better vision but I do have some experience cleaning up old photos with imaging tools to increase visibility.

Thomas, the Pz III could not be an Ausf. M; the Ausf. M had a distinctive exhaust mounted outside the rear plate for the fording system.

The tank is almost definitely a command Ausf. H since the command model of the Panzer III Ausf. H had antennae mounted on both the port and starboard sides and the typical Panzer III Ausf. H only had a starboard mounted antenna. And the Ausf. H was the only model with the external armored smoke candle box as a standard feature. I cannot find any photos of it being mounted on other versions of the Panzer III.

Assuming the panzer in the second photo is with the 24th Panzer Division -

According to my sources the Sd. Kfz. 253 (the OP half-track) only served on the Russian Front with assault artillery batteries following the invasion of France in 1940. Other units used the open-topped Sd. Kfz. 250 and other vehicles for OP purposes.

The 24th Panzer was not moved to Russia until June 1942 and was placed in reserve during Operation Zitadelle and fought at Woronesh, Don, and Stalingrad. The 24th Panzer Division was destroyed at Stalingrad in January 1943 and the division was reformed in France in April 1943 and returned to Russia in November 1943.

Could the photo be from Stalingrad? Possible artillery observation on a distant target?
-Panzer Artillerie Regiment 89 was attached to the 24th Panzer in 1943 and fought at Stalingrad.
-Artillerie Regiment 89 also had an observer battery attached to it in March 1942.
-The 24th Panzer Regiment of the Division had seven Panzerbefehlswagen and 54 5cm L/42 armed Panzer III.
-The Balkankreuze are correct for the time period and it looks like there may be many buildings in the distance of the photo.
-Could many of these early type vehicles have survived Stalingrad to be re-assigned to the 24th Panzer Division on the Russian front in November 1943? 50% of the initial production Pz.Bef.Wg IIIH were destroyed by June 1942.

Here is a link to a photo of one, possibly two, Pz.Bef.Wg. III H serving with the 24th Panzer:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...4-3%20Stab.jpg

Unfortunately I cannot tell the tank number from the photo, ends in "1", but the tank on the left looks like "251".

If I am remembering correctly didn't command vehicles typically have a roman numeral or a number ending in "1" for identification? Could the numbering system, which changed throughout the war, be that this is the seventh command tank in the regiment and the number is "257" rather than "297"?

-Jordan