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What is a steiner??

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    #16
    "which some of us think to be written by the same author"

    You havent put forth any concrete evidence to debunk the novel or the man or the account. Plenty of writers have similar styles and translation does pose problems. Just look at how bad History Channel murders translations on its programs, leaving out key descriptions in whole cases and losing syntax.

    You should spend more effort digging for dirt on Stephen Ambrose, the patriotic thief who left truth in the gutter while he waved his banner high.

    The publisher billed it as an actual combat account. Sajer at first came to it's defense but quickly defferred to his own humanity. Who cares if you believe him or not? Like many veterans his goal isnt to make you believe him or win your favor. It is a kind of cleansing of the soul to get it out.

    All I know is that The Forgotten Soldier told about the Eastern Front from a place far better than what I had read to that point or since. Every other book seems to want to build itself on figures and statistics or campaigns as if it needs to somehow define it's merits on details. Sajers novel didnt need this and to my liking isnt about how many millimeters a damn cuff title is sewn when in the back of his mind his friends jawless face sucking for air seemed more important than insignia regulations or naming conventions for weapons.
    Last edited by Lloyd I.; 05-26-2005, 01:40 PM.

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      #17
      I've read the book many times and I do not recall ever eading the word "bloody". Perhaps your translation was different than mine. Also, one of Sajer's main lines of thought in the book was his inadequacy as a soldier, his inability to lead men, and the incredible fear which constantly gripped him. Hardly the thing a made up account would embrace.

      jeff
      Looking for a 30 '06 Chauchat magazine.

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        #18
        But don't think it "history."
        Well, respected historian Anthony Beevor disagrees with you. He lists Sajers book in his bibliography of "The Fall of Berlin 1945".

        As a student doing History at University I would like to point out that no personal historical account is deemed 100% historical by any Historian as they are very aware of both bias and human failings such as poor memory and the temptation to embelish. However, personal accounts used in conjunction with other sources (primary and secondary) can establish an effective and authentic look at a period in the past. I read all of Hassels books as a teenager and they are comic like, full of outrageous, mostly unbelievable and sometimes funny stories. I dont think anyone reading them would really consider them genuine accounts just comic book fantasy. To compare them with Sajers book is ridicoulous in my view and they most definitely are not in the same style as you suggest. Sajers book is a sombre account that does not make a mockery of war and to me his account rings true. Of course there are some errors about uniforms and equipment but you get that from any veteran. If he changed some names to avoid being found and harassed in France that seems extremely feasible to me.

        If you want to believe it is a fake account that is of course perfectly fine but your weak arguments against the book do not give you the right to take such a sneering stance towards those who take a different view.

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          #19
          Oh come on, "eloquent" what are we asking for here Sassoon? Its a great book, a great story and its written with feeling and passion, it sure beats the hell out of some of the dry and tedious lists of facts, figures and dull technical descriptions you find in a great many books within our hobby, relax enjoy a story, if you want detail read a manual.

          further reading:
          http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm

          cheers, Rik



          Originally posted by Matt Starr
          Its not the most eloquently written book so far, and I'm not impressed by the lack of detail. Hopefully the book will progress in to a good old read though. Thanks Adam
          Matt

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            #20
            From Sajer's own words regarding innacuracies in 'details':

            <SMALL>"You ask me questions of chronology situations dates and unimportant details. Historians and archivists (Americans as well as Canadians) have harassed me for a long time with their rude questions. All of this is unimportant. Other authors and high-ranking officers could respond to your questions better than I. I never had the intention to write a historical reference book; rather I wrote about my innermost emotional experiences as they relate to the events that happened to me in the context of the Second World War."</SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL><SMALL>Sajer was 16 when he joined the Wehrmacht, 19 when he was released from POW status. In that time he witnessed and experienced hell. In 1957 his 17 volumes of pencil written reflections which he undertook to help deal with the nightmares and stressors that plagued him from the war were taken by friends to be published. He was reluctant.</SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL><SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL>This next qoute from Sajer himself indicates his state of mind and reflects his pessimism. </SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            </SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL>"I succeeded in having this horror story from the Second World War published in a country hostile to me [France] against my own best interests and with all of the problems in describing the well-merited compassion I still feel for my German soldier comrades ... all of them. I conveyed the difficulty of these moments ... the anguish and the horror. I [publicly] acknowledged the courage and good will of German Landsers in a climate where one was not permitted to talk about them. I depicted their faithfulness and self-sacrifice ... I moved the hearts of millions. I have proudly glorified the honor of all German soldiers at a time in history when they were slandered and reviled. In my opinion this was my duty and I asked for nothing in return."</SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL>Taken, from http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/sajer.htm.</SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>
            <SMALL></SMALL>

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              #21
              I read Sayer's book and have a gut feeling of its honesty. It was one of my favourite books and what got me interested in Germanmilitaria. Although theyre may be inconsistencies, for me it is a real story.

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                #22
                I think the Forgotten Soldier is a terrific read. There are some inaccuracies, but so do a lot of histories. Just look at the Glantz series of Russian Staff School translations that have been printed as gospel.

                The U.S. Army Command and General Staff College still has this book on their reading lists for WW2.

                See:

                http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...rld%20War%20II

                The War College has a more refined focus and their general reading list is updated often annually.

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                  #23
                  Sajer was a pen name, His real name is Guy Mouminoux. here he is (its in french).

                  http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jeanvalhardi/mouminoux.htm

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                    #24
                    Thinking that Sven Hassel and this Sayer guy are the same is pretty ridiculous, as Hassels books were originaly published in Danish, and this Saywer book in French.

                    I live in Zagreb, and about 75% of the people I speak to do not believe me when I tell them I am French and canadian and studiying in Zagreb. They think I am a conman inventing BS to find girlfriends. Some people still dont believe me when I show them my ID.
                    Think how hard it would be for Sayer to prove his story true years after the war, with comerades dead or in Germany. Anyways, surelly it can be seen if he speacks German or not, and he must have familly?? I havent even read the book and had never heard about it untill today.
                    And I have interviewed several vets about the same event. The differences in accounts are huge, and regularly downrigh contradictory.

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                      #25
                      Steiner was a field marshall who took command at the last defense participations in Berlin.He had the 9th Armeegruppe under his command(Most probably 9thArmeegruppe had included few companies coming from Kronstadt and Kozytrin)

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                        #26
                        Wiener

                        Does anyone knows what actually happened to the veteran Wiener?

                        His story strikes me the most in Sajer's book. I have read he covered the retreat of Sajer, Hals and it's comrades and there was a pile of smoke.
                        So I sadly assume he was killed.

                        However, in that case, since there's no clearance on that, he should be cased as missing in action.
                        I also realise these names are pseudoniems so it will be hard to get to now that.

                        Anyone knows what happened to Hals?
                        Is Sajer still alive himself? Is anyone by any chance in contact with him?

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