I've been Floched!

[German97]

Welcome to the club lol At least you only got the wound badge, I got a nice Floch fake EK1 to go with my Floch wound badge. The presentation case for the EK1 was surprisingly real though, the only good thing that came out of that deal.

[erichcraciun]

The box and the stickpin did not come with the set.

Any opinion about those???

Thanks

Erich

[erichcraciun]

Opinions on the stickpin?

Anyone? Anyone?

[VonPeter]

Wow, you waited almost one year to bump your question... you sir, have enormous patience.

/peter

[erichcraciun]

Patience is hopefully a virtue....or

Was lange währt, wird endlich gut.

[Ron C.]

Does anyone know if Floch was making the round of shows at US military bases in Germany back around 1975? I recall seeing a table rented by one dealer at the Zweibrücken AFB show with a very large number of EK I's piled up on the center of the table. I do not know if he was German, or Austrian. Bought an EK I out of the lot. Still have the EK I. Asked around and was told by one table holder that most of the sellers stuff was bad. It was a long time ago, but I do remember that he was of average height and build, with brown hair and a mustache. Will see about taking scans of the EK I to show here and find out if anyone recognizes it as one his early repros.

Edward,

I haven't seen Johannes Floch for many years now. I was in Germany with the U.S. Army from 1973 to 1976 at HQ 8th ID in Bad Kreuznach, but did travel around Germany some as a JAG lawyer, and a lot to various fleamarkets and etc.. I never saw him anywhere at that time, but I suppose it would have been easy for him to be somewhere I wasn't at the time. I am not sure when or where I first met him, but it was before I went to Germany at the Cincinnati Show of the OVMC.......maybe in Norwood, or over the river in Kentucky at a place called the Drawbridge (I think) when it moved over there. I have heard the show was later called the SOS. On second thought maybe it was at the Vets Memorial Ohio State Gun Collectors Show in Columbus, Ohio....maybe in the late 60s or early 70s. He was not a large fellow and had no mustache, but he did have brown hair. He was a very friendly and personable guy. He would come in and set up at a table, but he didn't put much of anything out on the table. He didn't have to do so. He had suitcases of stuff under the table (maybe some boxes too) full of stuff, and all of the dealers would flock around him. They would go behind the table and sit with him. He pulled out and opened the cases and boxes, and they bought the stuff in large quantities from him.....being very secretive about it, like they were the only ones that were getting the deals from him. They weren't. He flooded the market with Westwall medals and War Service medals and crosses, all in the original packets. The price of them dropped for years. He also had EK 1s, both with and without cases, also wound badges with packets...mostly black ones. Most, if not all, of these things were absolutely original. Later he did have some repro stuff, all the originals he had already sold, and he, I think, had gotten with some of the people who made the stuff originally and had them made some rather good repros; however, he was not dishonest about it. He definitely told people what they were.........the dealers still flocked to him and bought him out usually very quickly. A lot of the "big time" dealers got stuff from him, and they each had their tales about where it came from (one of the main reasons I quit actively collecting). He pulled no punches and told no lies about the later repro stuff he started selling, and they all knew what it was......so, at that time at least, he was not dishonest about his stuff, and earlier he had some very good totally original things, mostly common but not all, that he sold for really good prices.

I am told this is a photo of him around 2004 at a show in Germany, where he spent the evening with some "big time" dealers some from the U.S.; however, I do not know for sure, since I haven't seen him since the late 60s or early 70s.

I also later heard that he had a restaurant in Vienna, Austria, where he was from, but that is only hearsay and should not be relyed upon.

Can't really tell you much more about him because I haven't seen him at all since maybe the late 60s or early 70s, and, since I quit going to any shows in the late 70s soon after I came back from Germany, won't in the future either. I am just another ghost from the past.

Ron

[John T]

That is not the man of mystery...I wonder who the guy in the photo actually is.

[petopoint]

Floch?

What the Floch? Could Floch have become Floched himself?

[Ron C.]

That is not the man of mystery...I wonder who the guy in the photo actually is.

John,

I have no idea, like I said I couldn't be sure it was Johannes since I hadn't seen him for many years. I also don't remember how old he was when I first saw him, and I have no idea how old the guy in the photo sent to me by some guy is. The photo was sent to me sometime before my stroke, and I don't even remember who he was.......I have really been totally out of touch with this stuff and the people connected with it for some time now. In fact I just heard from a guy who still goes to some shows that Paul Peters died.....but I don't know when, and he told me Jim Atwood had disappeared.

Maybe the guy who sent me the picture didn't know at all what he was talking about, because I am pretty sure he said the photo was from 2004; however, I just checked the metadata with PhotoShop and it said it was taken April 2, 2005. I have one other he sent of a guy but it was taken the same day, and I am also not sure of who it is.

Ron

[NBolinger]

picture

Edward,

I haven't seen Johannes Floch for many years now. I was in Germany with the U.S. Army from 1973 to 1976 at HQ 8th ID in Bad Kreuznach, but did travel around Germany some as a JAG lawyer, and a lot to various fleamarkets and etc.. I never saw him anywhere at that time, but I suppose it would have been easy for him to be somewhere I wasn't at the time. I am not sure when or where I first met him, but it was before I went to Germany at the Cincinnati Show of the OVMC.......maybe in Norwood, or over the river in Kentucky at a place called the Drawbridge (I think) when it moved over there. I have heard the show was later called the SOS. On second thought maybe it was at the Vets Memorial Ohio State Gun Collectors Show in Columbus, Ohio....maybe in the late 60s or early 70s. He was not a large fellow and had no mustache, but he did have brown hair. He was a very friendly and personable guy. He would come in and set up at a table, but he didn't put much of anything out on the table. He didn't have to do so. He had suitcases of stuff under the table (maybe some boxes too) full of stuff, and all of the dealers would flock around him. They would go behind the table and sit with him. He pulled out and opened the cases and boxes, and they bought the stuff in large quantities from him.....being very secretive about it, like they were the only ones that were getting the deals from him. They weren't. He flooded the market with Westwall medals and War Service medals and crosses, all in the original packets. The price of them dropped for years. He also had EK 1s, both with and without cases, also wound badges with packets...mostly black ones. Most, if not all, of these things were absolutely original. Later he did have some repro stuff, all the originals he had already sold, and he, I think, had gotten with some of the people who made the stuff originally and had them made some rather good repros; however, he was not dishonest about it. He definitely told people what they were.........the dealers still flocked to him and bought him out usually very quickly. A lot of the "big time" dealers got stuff from him, and they each had their tales about where it came from (one of the main reasons I quit actively collecting). He pulled no punches and told no lies about the later repro stuff he started selling, and they all knew what it was......so, at that time at least, he was not dishonest about his stuff, and earlier he had some very good totally original things, mostly common but not all, that he sold for really good prices.

I am told this is a photo of him around 2004 at a show in Germany, where he spent the evening with some "big time" dealers some from the U.S.; however, I do not know for sure, since I haven't seen him since the late 60s or early 70s.

I also later heard that he had a restaurant in Vienna, Austria, where he was from, but that is only hearsay and should not be relyed upon.

Can't really tell you much more about him because I haven't seen him at all since maybe the late 60s or early 70s, and, since I quit going to any shows in the late 70s soon after I came back from Germany, won't in the future either. I am just another ghost from the past.

Ron

The guy in the picture is not him. Ill try find a picture in a old max show book.

[Arthur Kullmer]

I Remember seeing a tall german speaking guy age late 50s`with black mustache fitting the bill described in some of the posts below, doing the rounds in UK militaria shows around 2001 -2003

He had a brief case & lots of badges & many dealers bought from him behind their tables in a secretive way, dont know what he was selling as never got to see or involved as a punter.

Incidentally around that time, I bought a Floch gold wound badge & a one piece EK1 which had an original case, early on in my collecting from two seperate uk dealers.

So theres definitely a pattern of a guy doing the rounds presenting these fakes.

The EK1 was traded back to the dealer as part ex for good item & cash back my way, I dont think he thought it was a fake ?

The wound badge I was embarassed about & threw away in the end

[juoneen]

(If this isn't floch then the picture needs deleted )This is the same basic type of guy souval was...he wasn't the culprit made out to be that many curse , he sold repros AS REPROS, and some originals till the market demand depleted their in stock left over war time inventory , which was junk to the Germans post war, and was just an opportunist and I give credit for being an entrepeneur.Its the unscrupulous who bought the quanities of items that gave them both (floch,and souval) the bad name like they were selling fakes as originals...when the real culprits in fact were the ones with the plan to deceive the public, then they bad mouth these fellows to distract us from the truth , when these folks in fact took the ill gotten profits , and built their collections of fine originals funded by the money ripped off the unsuspecting but trusting newby collectors. Many of the folks ripping of folks back in the early years in the 60's are now old timer collectors ,and continued till the jig was up...and now have distanced themselves from continuing so they have salvaged their reputations due to victims now being deceased to not be able to point the fingers at folks I still know were part of that deceit. We all know who these folks are, and hopefully they will someday be sanctioned by fate in each his own reality ,to lose all they gained through their scammings, and more or suffer from long debilitating illnesses for their crimes...yes I said crimes ..its called FRAUD. It would have been different if they had just sold the items purchased from floch as repros, but the allure was too great with the greed for money . This too is the reason I no longer purchase much except first hand, as I was victimized by many here who are big collectors now but small time hood basicly back when I was a newby...and they do not recall me any longer , and I still say original vet found items are worth to me double any unprovenanced dealer site nimroded items when they are finally liquidated...The fakes today are technological wonders now made with new processes like,with 3-d printing technologies and can duplicate even the flaws to one millionth of a square inch, and still fool the experts because they refuse to scrutinize more closely the actual differences of size , weight, details ,and materials or finishes used in the large ammount of so called originals in millions of collectors collections that have fooled almost everyone...so laugh all you want,... many of those laughing are victims , and perpetraitors..to boot. Might be why many with guarantees of lifetime refunds sold out and got out of dodge ...So to avoid getting floched for good...avoid shows , or at least don't spend much with show dealers ,as I would like to see shows go the way of the dinosaur...and end the inquisition for good . My best advice to newbys especially , is keep or start hunting the woodwork , and when you find a score and want to sell always ask double retail ,or dont sell..to those who wont pay up...as you know you at least have a 100% original and the real deal. As for the skeptics who think all woodwork finds are fakes and scammers...many times those folks are the scammers, or do not know how to tell if a person is scamming or not, as I have never been scammed by any vets ever in 50 years of collecting ..That story gets old, and is used many times to baffle honest sellers they want to chinga deliberately to steal good items for nothing, telling them they are fakes ...so when someone tells you a vet found item is a fake (and they will give you a fake or repro price for it anyway), be suspicious do not sell it...and remove the item for sale from anyone, as they will send someone else to buy it as a fake anyway(just keep it)..this trumps their scam game...and to keep it instead, will piss em off as it likely is an original(then never do business with that person(crook) again). there are many ways to play the ripp off game...with their slick talking self proclaimed expert BS , and the bigger the ticket items price ,and supposedly rarity ,the more likely you are getting taken to the cleaners...just ask chen....

[Ron C.]

(If this isn't floch then the picture needs deleted )This is the same basic type of guy souval was...he wasn't the culprit made out to be that many curse , he sold repros AS REPROS, and some originals till the market demand depleted their in stock left over war time inventory , which was junk to the Germans post war, and was just an opportunist and I give credit for being an entrepeneur.Its the unscrupulous who bought the quanities of items that gave them both (floch,and souval) the bad name like they were selling fakes as originals...when the real culprits in fact were the ones with the plan to deceive the public, then they bad mouth these fellows to distract us from the truth , when these folks in fact took the ill gotten profits , and built their collections of fine originals funded by the money ripped off the unsuspecting but trusting newby collectors. Many of the folks ripping of folks back in the early years in the 60's are now old timer collectors ,and continued till the jig was up...and now have distanced themselves from continuing so they have salvaged their reputations due to victims now being deceased to not be able to point the fingers at folks I still know were part of that deceit. We all know who these folks are, and hopefully they will someday be sanctioned by fate in each his own reality ,to lose all they gained through their scammings, and more or suffer from long debilitating illnesses for their crimes...yes I said crimes ..its called FRAUD. It would have been different if they had just sold the items purchased from floch as repros, but the allure was too great with the greed for money . This too is the reason I no longer purchase much except first hand, as I was victimized by many here who are big collectors now but small time hood basicly back when I was a newby...and they do not recall me any longer , and I still say original vet found items are worth to me double any unprovenanced dealer site nimroded items when they are finally liquidated...The fakes today are technological wonders now made with new processes like,with 3-d printing technologies and can duplicate even the flaws to one millionth of a square inch, and still fool the experts because they refuse to scrutinize more closely the actual differences of size , weight, details ,and materials or finishes used in the large ammount of so called originals in millions of collectors collections that have fooled almost everyone...so laugh all you want,... many of those laughing are victims , and perpetraitors..to boot. Might be why many with guarantees of lifetime refunds sold out and got out of dodge ...So to avoid getting floched for good...avoid shows , or at least don't spend much with show dealers ,as I would like to see shows go the way of the dinosaur...and end the inquisition for good . My best advice to newbys especially , is keep or start hunting the woodwork , and when you find a score and want to sell always ask double retail ,or dont sell..to those who wont pay up...as you know you at least have a 100% original and the real deal. As for the skeptics who think all woodwork finds are fakes and scammers...many times those folks are the scammers, or do not know how to tell if a person is scamming or not, as I have never been scammed by any vets ever in 50 years of collecting ..That story gets old, and is used many times to baffle honest sellers they want to chinga deliberately to steal good items for nothing, telling them they are fakes ...so when someone tells you a vet found item is a fake (and they will give you a fake or repro price for it anyway), be suspicious do not sell it...and remove the item for sale from anyone, as they will send someone else to buy it as a fake anyway(just keep it)..this trumps their scam game...and to keep it instead, will piss em off as it likely is an original(then never do business with that person(crook) again). there are many ways to play the ripp off game...with their slick talking self proclaimed expert BS , and the bigger the ticket items price ,and supposedly rarity ,the more likely you are getting taken to the cleaners......

I don't know Juoneen (or at least I don't think I do...however I might, since he obviously has been around for quite some time apparently and maybe we might have run into each other at some point; however, due to my stroke lots of things are not as clear in my memory anymore) but I agree with him, so I went to my Flicker photostream and deleted the photo I was sent of supposedly Johannes Floch. I thought that would take care of the problem, but it seems to still be in my post on the WAF.....I don't know how to do it otherwise, but I hope someone who has the knowledge to do so will do so. The photo is an injustice to whoever the guy is, and also to Johannes (who as far as I knew him never told anyone that the things he was selling later were original...the repros he had some of later during the period I used to see him at shows were always called what they were....repros...it was the ones he sold them to who called them originals, then later blamed him for passing them off as originals).

I started to delete Juoneen's other comments after the part where it said the photo should be deleted; however, when I started really going over it to see where I should start my delete to make this reply, I never got to that point until I got to the part about someone named Chen at the very end. I also don't know Chen; however, all the rest I find that I too agree with what Juoneen says completely.......which is, as I think I have said before is one of the major reasons that I quit going to shows and actively collecting military stuff in the late 70s a short time after I came back from my tour of duty in West Germany. Everything I had at the shows was not real (or most of what they wanted) according to the big boys; however, they were always willing to "take it off my hands" to help me out! Later, one of their buddies would come by offering to by it from me with a tale, sometimes, that they were building up a collection of repros so they could use them to teach others what no to buy. I didn't bite, and you shouldn't either if you got it from a "real vet" and you like it. Remember, although I don't know because I am "out of it now", that some of what you fellows call "hordes" (I think) could possibly turn out down the road to be from another Floch identified by him as what they really were, but passed on as newly discovered in old factories or otherwise. While it could all be true, I sort of wonder when I hear about one of these "finds", because in the 70s I searched the area where I roamed every moment I was able to get away from the base and my trials. I even went to the rag pickers warehouses stood up on the bales of used clothing and watched the workers sort them. I signaled to each when a uniform part came out and they would throw it in my pile. I went home with all kinds of uniform parts (of course devoid of insignia) from SS panzer to LW camo field smocks (or whatever they are called). I had feldherrenhalle tunics, Kriegsmarine, LW, Heer, fire police, police, NSKK, and many others. When I came back I sold them in fairly large numbers, many to some famous names in the hobby......I am reasonably sure many came back on the market as totally untouched originals.....well they were, but when I sold them they had no insignia on them. I also had (and still have a few) original parts, which I got from old tailor shops and etc.. They included rolls of ribbon stock, the metal mount bars and clips for attaching medals to the bars, rank pips, buttons, piping for early SS and etc. collars and collar tabs, collar tabs themselves, metal eagles and wreaths for various visor caps. The buttons sold really well, because some dealers bought them to replace the buttons on some tunics which were very close to the more sought after combat tunics, but whose buttons gave them away; however with real buttons of the right kind they became something they were not. I also still have a few hobnails, toe plates, and horseshoe type heel plates for boots. A friend of mine also had a few big spools of bullion thread of the correct kind for unit standards, he got a really good price for them...and was told that soon some old standards were going to be coming on the market! Seems the person had an old machine and a person who operated it orginally that he was going to be visiting.

Enough......I ramble a lot since my stroke, so I suppose all I should say is take what Juoneen says to heart.......there is wisdom in it, besides the stuff that was worn really saw the war and is "a part of history" and could tell some very interesting stories if it could talk. The other stuff merely sat in dark storage places just waiting in case it might be needed, but belonged to nobody yet and never really was a part of it at all. I would rather have a medal awarded to someone and worn by them, rather than one in better condition but never awarded to anyone.

Again, I don't know Juoneen (but maybe, just maybe, I might or at least may have met him sometime) however, I sure agree with him; so someone please delete the photo if I wasn't able to do it. Now, I am an old fart with a recently broken right foot, I need to get to bed, besides I am just another old guy who doesn't know feces.

Ron

[juoneen]

more truths to ponder and remember in the future clarified

It is public knowledge by collectors that mr chen was ripped of for a million dollars on a deal for a fake document cover...and is trying to litigate his moneys back through the us law..I was gonna offer him a real rare item some day to be worth that same amount if kept for a few years, as the big name famous items slowly are absorbed , but I was snubbed and will not accept even an excuse now, or any contact as the chance is gone forever ... as a result ...I decided to keep the item in the hands of the western world collectors only. I sent personally to the PM box , only to get 0 response after three weeks. So why bother having a PM box? The not answering a pm should be a sanctionable offense...but of course is not, so I sanctioned him forever and hope he realizes he was ripped buying a fake, but would have scored big time with buying my original if he had been friendly but sadly was not.. People need to judge folks for themselves, not what other nimrods who doubt here when the real truth is spoken, but to think for oneself was something the german peole couldn't seem to do either,even during the war or this war would never have come about.... collectors should pay no attention to negative comments about anyone they do not know especially if they are not into the money end of the hobby as dealers...I decided I was an idiot to offer the item to anyone from asia, (sorry but that's the way it goes I am in a free country and have that privledge to do as I please) , and the day will come soon when I would find someone some day to pay me what I want for the item, and not ask for any discount as just having the chance to buy the item ...at any price ( much less then a million dollars ) and even certain luft collectors here , I have spoken with on the phone , and done favors for here to add items to their collections for so called study...(BBBRRTTT!!!) have shown me their true colors and snub me,when I inquired if they bought something I tipped them on to buy they said was fake and was not...with no charge or percentage, I just wanted to know, but also was no answer back ..not so much as a thnk you...but basicly just a screw you by the snub ( I will never forget). So I don't trust that guy or anyone here ,any longer who collects or deals and those who do so .. can live the rest of his life also knowing they did themselves the worst wrong, and blew it also , so why bother to help rich dudes who are rude when you do them good...you get nothing back not even a thank you, no politeness unless they screwed you good ...so newbys I would give this advice to never forget from here on, and follow is:never give a souce for an item without getting severeal hundred for the flipped deal or the tip at least, or ten percent which ever is greater , and do not help anyone here for free EVER...it makes you look like a chump, when especially I am not. The big collectors here with the rarest items are just wealthy cheapskapes who have more money than they could ever spend...but can afford to do so..... many are professionals with large firms that do tens of millions in profit every year....sodo not fall for their cheap stories or asking for discounts they can afford to pay retail any day of the week... I decided to not even bother to read the wants lists these bS ers put at the bottom of their pages...and as money becomes the value of dirt...I would rather save the item I have saved I got from the vet myself for the right person who will appreciate the scores I made first hand , and has the kind of jack It will require to add to their collections . To be wasting time with can kicking Richie rich types who play the poor boy rapp...and are really wealthy , just want their cake and to eat it too...(so there). by the way...I have been lied to by some of the biggest authors on here , when they don't really know as much as they say they do, flip flop around about sating something is, then it isn't , then it isn't original when they had to go elsewhere but not to their own book on the subject , (just how good their books really are) to find others to help them , when they really did not even know what the item was as tooriginality or not...and to accept a negative assessment continually being totally wrong...when it takes them four or five months to get a straight answer as to originality of items they just have never seen ,I wind up losing money as a result that they are the expert, but don't know ... but was not given one a straight answer at all...but although the item does not match any fakes anywhere has made it apparent to be careful believing anything said by such so called self proclaimed experts ,forces me to not want any of their publications because of this serious credibility gap. I revere the honest , not the self proclaimed , would never even want to meet one of em...in person as they are pure ego, and nothing more...so to me I have no use for their baloney , and suggest we all, just knock them all down to just a regular staus , and not any different than anybody else..and now do not consider any authors expert on anything relating to awards,as most times they are working on a small facet about something ,mostly pressing their misguided but inciteful theorys and not hard physical paper records from actual german manufacturers records . it is known some of these transplants work in lieu the agenda for big European dealers ,whom if you say anything to the truth about, will stop you from accessing their sales sites..though their snitches who work for them looking for threads on the WAF where their honesty is in question ,and even when it is the truth.... but the one man I will give expert ststus to is: Mark Yerger...here is a expert, and truly fantasticly honest person we all should aspire to emulate when we take on our miniscule book projects on as a n example to follow to want to be like...so to mark here to you dude......and I cannot give you enough praise for being the best author in the whole hobby.I am also sorry to hear of Ron C's foot injury and stroke , and wish you good fortune to dealing with your health problems ..I send best wishes for improved health , as best can be expected...just because people have money and prominence in professional as posting individuals here lives does not mean they are good people..their snubbing me or not answering my inquirys is a lick on their professionalism, and you know who you are, will certainly bring them bad luck...and they deserve it and need to realize why be sheep, you may not be here tomorrow as many here may drop dead ay any time, so remember it aint the 60's any longer.......I will stand still and watch the powers come down on their good fortune, and just shake my head, and say oh well they did this to themselves, it was not by me....they could have taken the better way and been straight up with all always....