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**Br. James** · 11-28-2017, 03:06 PM

Not being familiar with this award, I have read a bit about these games and their history -- and I still have no definite answer to your question regarding this piece and it's wording for "The Winner." Our friends at Lakeside Trader also have an example of this piece w/swastika available, though it is in silver and in the form of a Commemorative Table Medallion, not a neck award w/ribbon. Here is what Lakeside tells us about their version of this piece:

"Here we have a German Fighting Games Non-portable Winners Plaque for the Nuremberg Summer Games - 23-29 June. It is constructed out of a die stamped tombak base that has been silver washed and burnished. The obverse features a large centrally placed German National Eagle with a sun wheel swastika on its chest above rows of men (the front members are bearing flags) coming from the stadium entrance, surrounded by “Deutsche Kampfspiele 1934” (German Fighting Games 1934). The reverse depicts six coat of arms (Nurnberg, Hamburg, Halle, Mainz, Kiel & Munchen), Nurnberg’s being centrally placed and the largest, above “Dem Sieger” (The Winner) and all surrounded by various sporting scenes. It measures 3 ½ inches in diameter. Nice detail!"

Perhaps the history of these games may hold a clue for us? It appears that these long-established summer games were the precursor to the next Olympic Games and these games served as the testing ground for providing the athletes who would represent their country at the next Olympics. Since these games were set up years in advance, just as the Olympic Games themselves were set up, perhaps the version of this award without the swastika had been created prior to the NSDAP taking control of the country and elevating their symbol, the swastika, to its prominent position representing the nation? In such a case, perhaps both versions of this design were actually used?

(We see another example of this in the official German Seal of State which was embossed onto all official documents -- the Seal as created for the Weimar Republic continued to be used by the Reich President's Chancellery into 1936, when we notice that the design of the Seal of State was no longer the Weimar Eagle but the Third Reich Eagle...but it took over two years to make that change.)

Since examples of this award exist in two different colors -- gold or bronze, as in the neck award here, and silver as in the Medallion offered by Lakeside Trader -- perhaps the three typical levels of competition awards were in effect in this series of awards -- gold, silver and bronze -- and other grades and designs of this award are yet to be seen. And as for "The Winner" -- if these games were held to decide who would represent Germany in the 1936 Olympic Games, then all athletes who won their sport(s) at these trial games were indeed "The Winners!"

Br. James

**Runic** · 11-28-2017, 05:43 PM

Br James,

Those are some very intriguing insights! It makes a lot of sense, that both models, with and without the swastika, would exist, if the games were as early as 1934. I had not thought of that at all. Your comment on how the official seal of state took time to change is a great example of why this is a very logical explanation.

As you said, theses games would take a bit of effort and time to organize, Since this was so, the two designs could almost be expected to exist, with the transitions and changes that took place before and after the death of Hindenburg. And also, as you pointed out, with the rise of the swastika to prominence as the national symbol during this time period.

Maybe these German sports games were indeed somehow tied, even if indirectly, into the later bid to have Germany host the Olympics in 1936. Hosting the Olympics was a huge coup for Germany, putting them in the world spotlight, and it took a lot of effort to win the bid to host the games. And the German athletes won the most gold medals, more than any other country, as I recall.

If the 1934 German games were for finding all the best German athletes (with or without the intention of possibly finding future Olympic contenders), that would make them all winners - the best Germany had to offer. Thus that is the possible reason they placed Dem Sieger on all the medals, as you said. That is a pretty good theory, the best I have heard. I sure don’t have a better one.

Thanks Br James!

**speedytop** · 11-28-2017, 08:27 PM

Hi,

the shown medal is from the 70s/80s as "award" for a marching competition. The medals exist in the grades Bronze and Silber, normally for different distances.
There is a plate missing on the ribbon with the name of the event, the location and the date; for example:
7. Int. Silvester-Marsch
Langenzenn 1978
On the backside of the plate you can find the maker Fritz Reu (in Heubach).

For the first three places in an sports event it is normal, to call these three winners "Sieger". It is the same for the first three sports teams.
On the documents for the "Sieger" in 1934, single or team member, we see the inscription:
... Erwerb der Erzplatte in Gold (or Silber or Bronze) ...

Uwe

**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 05:21 AM

Found some good info on Wikipedia :

“The Deutsche Kampfspiele (English: German Struggle Games) were a national multi-sport event established in 1922 by the Deutscher Reichsausschuss für Leibesübungen under Carl Diem.

Deutsche Kampfspiele

The events lasted from 1922 to 1934. According to Diem the games should promote "German art, German song and German Volksgemeinschaft". In 1938 they were replaced by the Deutsches Turn- und Sportfest 1938.

NS-Kampfspiele
**During the Nazi regime, the fighting games continued as NS-fighting games. Since Germany had been allowed to participate in the Olympics since 1928, these games were no longer to be understood as a counter-movement to the Olympic idea, but rather as a propaganda platform for the regime.**

When, in 1935, the international boycott movement against the Olympic Games in Berlin in 1936 grew markedly, the replacement of German combat games in Berlin was Plan B of the Reichssportführer. On the order of Adolf Hitler on November 30, 1936, these games were held during the Reichspartueitage in Nuremberg from 1937 to 1938, with regional preliminary decisions for the main games. In addition to the NSDAP, the SA, SS, NSKK and HJ also participated in the predominantly military sports competitions, such as hand grenade targets, 30-meter swimming in a drizzle suit with a pack or 15-kilometer baggage in closed formations Wehrmacht and the police. The SA had the responsibility for these paramilitary events. The outbreak of war in 1939 ended the short episode of the NS combat games.[5][6] A documentary was made of the 1937 edition of these games.[7]”p

Summer Games
1922 - June 18 to July 2 in Berlin
1926 - July 4 to July 11 in Cologne
1930 - June 26 to June 29 in Breslau

1934 - June 23 to June 29 in Nürnberg

Winter Games
1922 - January 23 to January 29 in Garmisch-Partenkirchen in Upper Bavaria
1926 - January 23 to January 31 in Triberg im Schwarzwald
1930 - January 11 to January 19 in Krummhübel on Riesengebirge
1934 in Schierke in Harz

NS-Kampfspiele
1937 in Nürnberg
1938 in Nürnberg””

From this info, I believe Br James’ theory for the two different versions of the award, with and without swastika, holds true. It is due to the crossover period during the regime change and the rise of the swastika as the national symbol in 1933 - 1934.

Note that the NSRL wasn’t founded until July 27, 1934, after the summer Nürnberg games.

Also interesting is that this 1934 version of the German games were for the first time held in Nürnberg, site of the Nazi Rallies. This seems to play to the idea of the games becoming a Nazi showpiece, and also ties into the idea that medals with and without the swastika exist due to the transitional period of 1933-1934.

Dem Sieger? I still think Br James theory is a good one. I haven’t seen a zweiter or dritter medal, ever, for these games. So why would there be different color grades for the winner, and no second and third place as is usual with other contests of the era?

One other point - the rows of marching men sure do remind me of the mass marching SA men at the Nürnberg Rallies.

Interesting!

**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 06:11 AM

Here is a stamp with the Weimar flag and swastika flag, which were co-official from 1933-1935, depicted as flying over the 1934 Deutsche Kampfspiele in Nürnberg in 1934. Notice the stamp says the games were held from the 23 - 29 of Juli, not Juni!
Two versions of the medal, one with, one without swastika. Two co-official flags. Hmmm....transitional theory seems correct again. Both versions of the medal would be possible, until the swastika flag became the only official flag.

Attached Files

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**Br. James** · 11-29-2017, 10:21 AM

Hi Uwe,

I'm just a bit confused by your statement:

"the shown medal is from the 70s/80s as "award" for a marching competition."

Are you referring to the medal presented by Runic in his note #1 below? If so, would a medal bearing the date of 1934 have been used 40-50 years later, including the wrong date? Or perhaps I've misunderstood? Please explain...

Many thanks, my friend,

Br. James

**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 07:09 PM

Uwe,
Thanks for your response. Do you possibly have photos of the ribbon plaques you mention for this award, dated 1978, by Fritz Reu as you mentioned?
Your response is appreciated, but very confusing. Photo proof would be most helpful.
Your Kamerad in collecting,
R

**speedytop** · 11-29-2017, 07:40 PM

Hi Runic and Br. James,

Nonsense (This is a wonderful and rare bronze participant medal on a ribbon for the 1934 Deutsche Kampfspiele ...):
http://www.flyingtigerantiques.com/m...gory_Code=41SP

Reality (Nachprägung 1978 (1934) der Bronze-Medaille ...):
https://www.ma-shops.de/schimmer/item.php5?id=62439
"NP (restrike) zum internationalen Silvestermarsch 1978! Es fehlt die dazugehörige Spange!"

I bought this medal some months ago:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Dachbodenfund...-/132214661875

Note:
I have in my collection two original medals from 1934, one in Gold and one in Silber, and I have some medals from 1978 in Bronze and Silber.
There are also several original medals from 1922, 1926 and 1930 in my collection.

Uwe

**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 09:48 PM

Uwe,
Can you post photos of the originals in your collection?

I would love to see how they differ.

Why doesn’t the 1978 badge link you post have a ribbon?

How many of these 1978 badges have you seen? Can you post more photos? What is, in your opinion, the trade mark of a Real 1934 medal ?
Why is the 1st badge from Flying Tiger Antiques you post “nonsense.” ?

Please back up your statements, with photos of real badges, from your collection. Show us how they differ from what you consider nonsense reproductions from 1978.

We would love to learn.
R

**Runic** · 11-29-2017, 09:52 PM

Uwe,
Also, why, in you opinion, are there two versions of the real 1934 medal, with and without the Hakenkreuz?

**Br. James** · 11-30-2017, 10:49 AM

Hi Uwe,

I'm sorry to say that I continue to be confused by your statements that these medals clearing bearing the date of 1934 were actually issued for events that took place in 1978! I just can't imagine it! Do you have any documentation that corroborates such an amazing thing -- you must have found some document from which you gained this opinion?! Please help us to understand...!

Your friend,

Br. James

**speedytop** · 11-30-2017, 04:41 PM

Hi,

it is not confusing, it is simple.

There is only one design of the medal in 1934, with the sun wheel swastika. The medal is without a ribbon and placed in a case.

And this is the real medal for participants in 1934:
https://www.weitze.net/militaria/87/...4__258287.html

In Germany we can find thousands of different medals and decorations for sports events from 1975 and all the years up to the 90s, and there are thousands of different motifs.
The local organizers of such events chosed the motivs, to gain the most possible participants. Because the participants of the walking, running or marching events have to pay for the participation, and after the successful participation they "earn" their medal.

There are several large medals like the Kampfspiele medal, e.g. for all the olympic competitions since 1896, or for the soccer world championships.

Please see for example:
http://www.sammler.com/medaillen/wan....htm#Streifzug
http://www.sammler.com/medaillen/wan...len_wappen.htm
http://www.ustishop.top/memorabilia-...ml?language=de
http://www.nmmowshop.top/memorabilia...ten-p-957.html

I don't write "nonsense" for the medal from 1978, it is meant the partly wrong descripton.

I have 5 of these 1978 medals in my collection (1 Bronze, 4 Silber), but only 2 (1 Bronze, 1 Silber) have the ribbon and the correct (Bronze/Silber) plate; and I have seen many others.

Why is on several 1978 medals no plate or no ribbon with plate? > The sellers hope, to make more money with "original" 1934 medals!
Many buyers have been fooled!

The price for the 1978 medal in Post 9 (3rd link) is that, what I pay for such medals. The original medals from 1934 had been a little bit more expensive!

Based on the new WAF regulations for pictures I cannot show pictures here.

But here is an original Gold medal from 1934:
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2269&lot=1997

Uwe

**Runic** · 11-30-2017, 05:09 PM

Uwe,
Thanks for your reply.

Ok. So you are saying there is a well known tradition in Deutschland, of selling sports medals from the Nazi era, in reproduction form, so long as these items didn’t have a swastika? And this occurred particularly in 1978?

You say there are ONLY Two versions of the REAL 1934 medal, and BOTH had the sunwheel swastika?

Yet, then you post a link of what you say is an Original gold 1934 medal, that does Not have a sunwhell Hakenkreuz on the Eagle!!!!

Can you understand why this is confusing? Perhaps we are losing something in translation between English and German?

Maybe I misunderstand your point?
Your friends
R

**Runic** · 11-30-2017, 07:53 PM

Uwe,
I see the gold version you posted Does have a hakenkreuz. My mistake.
I didn’t notice the first time.

So you are saying that all real award winner medals had the swastika, and were table medals without ribbon? And only in Gold and Siber?

And that the ribbon versions without swastika were re-strikes from 1978???

Was the die modified to ommit the swastika on these re-strikes?

Were they actually awarded in competitions, as you seem to say??

Why? This is obviously a Nazi area award. Why would it be sanctioned as an award in the 70’s?
R

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