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**Gaspare** · 11-15-2017, 10:25 AM

great topic..

Wow, I thought the cloth wound badge was a done deal [?] anway,,
- and yes the notes authenticate nothing specific here..

My thinking on pieces like this is, long ago,there were some, that had to have specialty pieces and used them to become experts, authors, go to guys, etc. These guys actually planned for the long haul and hoped in their retirement years they would be able to cash in one way or another..

I think they curse the day of the type of technology that brought things like these USB port microscopes etc.. Of course this is just my own theory and opinion..

**jimmy72** · 11-15-2017, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Gary B View Post

The bottom line with this badge is that "It is what it is" and no one currently has any definitive information to prove if it is TR era or post war. All that has been covered/discussed is speculation. If it is post war, was it made in 1946...1956.....1966 or if there are later versions.....1996.

I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. It is just like numerous other badges that are controversial and has believers on both sides of the fence. Items such as:

1) Juncker 800 Silver Pilot badge
2) Round wreath pilot badge
3) Cloth wound badges
4) Prototype Blood orders
5) S&L DKiGs
6) Dotted DKiGs (although I now believe these are accepted)
7) Bakelite wound badges

The arguments are the same for all of the above badges:

1) Naysayers want pictorial evidence. Believers state that unique or late war badges might not have pictorial evidence. If a picture turns up then the debate is on whether or not the picture was photo shopped.
2) Naysayers state if it is real where are the others. Believers say if fake where are the others.
3) Naysayers ask for authorization document. When one is found then they say "authorization documents are not the same as a production order document" (see cloth wound badge debate).
4) Naysayers will state none has turned up in a veterans grouping. When one does turn up in a vet group then they state it is known that many items in veterans groupings are added post war.

The video shows that this badge required alot of work to make, regardless if it is TR era or post TR era. That would be a lot of work to put forth to sell a fake in the 50s/60s for the relatively low price that TR items brought at that time.

I don't have a horse in this race and would not be able to afford this piece if it did come up for auction. If it did I am sure there are enough believers to raise the price to a rather lofty one.

In the "old school" of collecting alot was based on handling the badge itself and from what I have seen in this thread and other related threads for this specific badge only a few have handled it and they were impressed with the quality. Alot that was made in wars to not follow regulations or the expectations we put on things using our standards of today. Limited run badges were cast, errors did get through the quality control etc.

Just my 2 cents, not advocating for or against the badge.

Gary B

No , this is pretty clear that your advocating for the badge.

**jimmy72** · 11-15-2017, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Gaspare View Post

great topic..

Wow, I thought the cloth wound badge was a done deal [?] anway,,
- and yes the notes authenticate nothing specific here..

My thinking on pieces like this is, long ago,there were some, that had to have specialty pieces and used them to become experts, authors, go to guys, etc. These guys actually planned for the long haul and hoped in their retirement years they would be able to cash in one way or another..

I think they curse the day of the type of technology that brought things like these USB port microscopes etc.. Of course this is just my own theory and opinion..

Indeed , this seems to be case with many of these fantasy badges. Thanks for your input !

**Runic** · 11-15-2017, 07:35 PM

Gary B,
Wonderfully stated, I agree with Gary S and Joe. You've boiled it down for us nicely, not just concerning this badge, but many 'controversial' badges that are truly hard for the collecting world to agree on.
Jimmy, I do NOT think it's clear that Gary B, with his very astute observations, is advocating for this badge. It's clear that he is stating how the argument plays out on these out of the ordinary pieces- and I think he does it rather well. Brilliant, IMO.

What is clear is that you are against the veracity of this badge. And anyone who states that is is at least possibly original to the TR period, you think advocates for it.

But that's just how I read your statements.

Here are some more points to consider.

The badge itself is not like the Coburg badge. The badge is a separate and definable design. The under lay of the swastika is not ground, but done with a chisel. The piece is hand-constructed. What hasn't been proven is when it was constructed. Also, note that it is not the Christopher Ailsby piece, it is the David Littlejohn piece, now in the Christopher Ailsby collection. This was acquired in November 2005 after the death of David. So it has never been offered for sale, nor, according to Christopher, will it ever be offered for sale.

Quite an interesting discussion, on what is truly a wonderful, if controversial piece.
It's obvious I believe it to be genuine TR era. But that is just my humble opinion.
R

**jimmy72** · 11-16-2017, 10:07 AM

Haha ! Well , I guess we are both seeing it from our respective opinions on this badge.
Hey ... real , tangible proof and I will be one of the converted.
I must say a “ thank you “ to Runic for providing some new images and background info on this badge !

**FrenchVolunteer** · 11-16-2017, 11:17 AM

Hi,

if i was Chris, i would jump on the proposition of Runic to trade his fake Coburg against Runic's collection... hoping that Runic collection is not full of similar Loch Ness fakes.

I also think that every single rational collector who read and replied in this topic will get bonus karma points.

This is funny to see that for every irrational fakes you will find people ready to defend them ad nauseam, and this explain why millions of idiots are tricked by crooks each year, buying fakes of almost everything...

See You

Vince

Attached Files

mulder-i-want-to-believe.jpg (98.4 KB, 258 views)

**Br. James** · 11-16-2017, 04:01 PM

Right you are, Vince...and who among us has not been 'tricked' into purchasing fake 'artifacts' in our hobby? And all too often, it is the 'artifact' itself which 'tricks' us into believing that it's the real deal, isn't it? The longer anyone is in this hobby, the larger the accumulation of fake and phony 'artifacts' becomes. That's certainly true in my case...!

Br. James

**Runic** · 11-17-2017, 07:12 PM

Well said, Jimmy! We will agree to disagree. If I ever get infallible proof, You will be the first person I PM.😊

BR James, I think you've said it all, I don't think I could improve on it.
R

**Runic** · 11-17-2017, 08:19 PM

Oops,
Vince, I almost forgot your comments!
Well, I would love to see your collection of 100% real artifacts. Few among us have a collection without a few fakes over the years.

You are the first I have heard of. Cheers!

I have a few, but thankfully, my real articles far outweigh my fakes.

By the way, Frenchvolunteer - Question: how many French Volunteers does it take to defend Paris??
Answer: No one knows, it's never been tried! 😂
Yours,
Fox Mulder

**jimmy72** · 11-18-2017, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by der-hase-fee View Post

Here is something to contemplate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSTc3CC-b7I

Here is Part II from the Micro Macro YouTube Channel https://youtu.be/pLMj2fr2ANI

**jimmy72** · 11-18-2017, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by Runic View Post

Well said, Jimmy! We will agree to disagree. If I ever get infallible proof, You will be the first person I PM.😊

BR James, I think you've said it all, I don't think I could improve on it.
R

Look forward to it !

Although this Coburg Badge is not currently for offer , I am curious as to what kind of figure this badge would command . Anyone have an idea ? Thx

**Erich B.** · 11-22-2017, 10:30 PM

I watched both parts of Jo's youtube Coburg video (as well as some of his others) and found them to be informative. I thought that it was known that the silver Coburg was made of multiple parts, although not having seen detailed photographs before of the front and back of the badge, I didn't know whether or not the swastika was separately made or how the sword was attached. The multi piece construction, for me, is not a deal breaker--several of the enameled Gau badges, for example, are made with separately applied parts, although they're usually riveted, rather than soldered, together. The Mothers' Cross also has a separate center which is soldered. I was under the impression that the relief of the overall badge could be greater with a separately applied device rather than having it be part of the die.
That the maker of this piece didn't have access to the original dies is not in question either. Assuming it is period, it would most likely have been made by a random jeweler who would have had no connection with the production of the actual award. The one aspect of its construction that I wonder about is the pattern of the metal under the enamel. As noted in the videos, it's relatively crudely done compared to the rest of the badge. I had thought, looking at the previously available photos, that the refraction of light through the enamel combined with the reflection and angle of the shot caused its appearance to be somewhat uneven and rough, but now we can see that it is, in reality, pretty scratchy. If you look at a privately purchased Turkish "Iron Crescent" (Gallipoli Star), the designs under the enamel are very nicely and neatly done. While those were cut into a die and the silver Coburg swastika was cut directly into the badge, it's a little surprising that they're not more evenly applied.
Erich

**Runic** · 11-23-2017, 02:43 PM

Erich B,
Very well thought-out and informative points, I for one think they are very interesting and very intelligently formed.

Here is my Very humble take me on the subject. Is it possible that the enamel shows roughness underneath in the light refraction, because the Jeweler who created the Littlejohn CB used a chisel on the foundation of the swastika, as I mentioned earlier, instead of grinding it down to a fine flat underlay? That is how it was made.
This beautiful badge has been examined by only a few. So I personally think those who damn it out right for not being conforming to period specifications are taking an easy out, and/or making a big mistake, since there are known specialty items made by Third Reich jewellers that are a cut above the norm, for clients who could afford them.

But I won't mention these badges, because for the purists, I will only be opening a bag of worms.

My thought is - make an incredibly unique, high quality Jeweler commissioned Coburg badge, spending much money to do so, and only make One. Sell it in 1964 to a collector for the price of a cased EKI and an EKII. Well below the cost of what you paid for construction, since you are hand creating it and not taking an original and spicing it up. You are starting completely from scratch!
Then, have that buyer Keep it his entire life, not trying to profit from it. Then have him bequeath it to another collector in 2005.

The question is - WHY????
If you are a faker, you want to make a profit. No one made a profit on this exquisite badge, nor do they ever intend to sell it. That doesn't prove it is TR period, but it sure as hell argues that it wasn't mass produced for a quick profit.

Any badges that followed this one or try to copy this badge are obvious fakes, intended to trick collectors. They are produced from pictures of this original, trying to prey on the credulity of the gullible collectors out there.

But as everyone knows by now, the Littlejohn CB is the real McCoy, IMHO.

And Vince, if I collect extra Karma points for my opinion, please offer up incense offerings for me the next time you are kneeling before the Bhudda.
Just a jest my friend- just a jest!
R

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