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**Runic** · 11-01-2017, 08:11 PM

"Jimmy, I have proof which I will post shortly. Dr Kleittmann's book Deutsche Auszeichnungen, published 1971 - on page 252 he classifies this badge as original and gives details. I also will post a scan from when the first owner procured the badge. I can also post better photos of the badge, to show it's true quality.

This should help show the originality of the piece.

R "

**jimmy72** · 11-01-2017, 10:43 PM

Runic , look forward to seeing the evidence as previous to your willingness to share , all that has been put forward are opinions. I had noticed that Klietmann was listed as the first contributor in regards to the Kahl book and was hoping someone would be able to add more detail to his connection to this badge. Not a “ brilliant “ reply but I will try to up it as we go along .

**Br. James** · 11-02-2017, 09:14 AM

Like Vince and Jimmy72, I also continue to wait to see any hard reference from the period which establishes that this silver-and-red version of the Coburg Badge existed in Germany during the Third Reich era.

Like many of our colleagues here, I greatly respect the work of Dr. Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann and I have a copy of his 1971 book. In the section of his book which deals with the standard Coburg Badge as an official NSDAP award, Dr. Klietmann acknowledged the existence of the silver-and-red CB; he wrote: "In David Littlejohn's collection (1970) is an original of the badge, which undoubtedly comes from the time of the Third Reich, but this representation is custom-made." Klietmann ends his acknowledgement of this unique CB with those words and he makes no further reference to it in his book. Klietmann also refers to four editions of Dr. Heinrich Doehle's reference book on TR badges and awards in his footnotes on the standard version of the CB, though none of those editions include any reference to the unique silver-and-red CB. So, IMO, Dr. Klietmann was familiar with this unique badge in 1971 and apparently regarded it as existing from the TR period, though he does not offer any period documentation for his acceptance of this piece. And that leaves us back where we started.

Br. James

**jimmy72** · 11-02-2017, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

Like Vince and Jimmy72, I also continue to wait to see any hard reference from the period which establishes that this silver-and-red version of the Coburg Badge existed in Germany during the Third Reich era.

Like many of our colleagues here, I greatly respect the work of Dr. Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann and I have a copy of his 1971 book. In the section of his book which deals with the standard Coburg Badge as an official NSDAP award, Dr. Klietmann acknowledged the existence of the silver-and-red CB; he wrote: "In David Littlejohn's collection (1970) is an original of the badge, which undoubtedly comes from the time of the Third Reich, but this representation is custom-made." Klietmann ends his acknowledgement of this unique CB with those words and he makes no further reference to it in his book. Klietmann also refers to four editions of Dr. Heinrich Doehle's reference book on TR badges and awards in his footnotes on the standard version of the CB, though none of those editions include any reference to the unique silver-and-red CB. So, IMO, Dr. Klietmann was familiar with this unique badge in 1971 and apparently regarded it as existing from the TR period, though he does not offer any period documentation for his acceptance of this piece. And that leaves us back where we started.

Br. James

Thank you for the information regarding Klietmann. Hopefully if Runic has other info he will choose to add it to this thread. Indeed , back where we started.

**Runic** · 11-02-2017, 06:38 PM

Br James,
Thanks for adding the information about Klietmann, and translating it. Also thanks for joining the discussion, you are always a welcome voice of reason. I would also like to join you in welcoming the new member who started this thread. Who would have known we'd wind up on this subject?

As far as I understand, Klietmann was quite an expert, and the excerpt from his book references the Special Coburg badge as belonging to David Littlejohn, and in his expert opinion it is from the Third Reich Era. This is the badge that Christopher Ailsby owns.

Here is the page from the book by Klietmann, which Br James translated, for your reference archives. Quite interesting in my opinion. This is via Christopher. It proves, at least, that a highly respected expert on Third Reich items believed this piece to be Genuine to the Third Reich Era. This is from 1970.

Note the section of interest is at the very top of the page.

Attached Files

Coburg Badge (Variant) - Deutsche Auszeichnungen - Dr Klietmann2.jpg (99.8 KB, 184 views)

**Richard** · 11-02-2017, 07:14 PM

Does anyone know who the first person was to bring the badge Ailsby now owns to light and when it happened? Any stories on how or where it originated and wound up in that person's possession?
Richard V

**jimmy72** · 11-02-2017, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by Runic View Post

Br James,
Thanks for adding the information about Klietmann, and translating it. Also thanks for joining the discussion, you are always a welcome voice of reason. I would also like to join you in welcoming the new member who started this thread. Who would have known we'd wind up on this subject?

As far as I understand, Klietmann was quite an expert, and the excerpt from his book references the Special Coburg badge as belonging to David Littlejohn, and in his expert opinion it is from the Third Reich Era. This is the badge that Christopher Ailsby owns.

Here is the page from the book by Klietmann, which Br James translated, for your reference archives. Quite interesting in my opinion. This is via Christopher. It proves, at least, that a highly respected expert on Third Reich items believed this piece to be Genuine to the Third Reich Era. This is from 1970.

Note the section of interest is at the very top of the page.

Good stuff ! Thanks to Runic for taking the time to post the excerpt from the Klietmann book. Certainly interesting , much appreciated.

**Runic** · 11-02-2017, 07:58 PM

Thanks Jimmy!

Richard, Christopher Ailsby acquired this unique Coburg badge from David Littlejohn. Christopher was kind enough to send me a copy from David's Purchase Ledger, where he kept a list of all the medals and awards he acquired, not for re-selling them, but for cataloguing his collection.
He listed the names of the badge, the date range for when he bought them, and from whom.

This is the ledger page that shows that in early 1964, David Littlejohn acquired the Coburg badge, together with an SA Riders Badge, and he notes at the bottom of the page that these two badges "formerly belonged to N.S.K.K. Obergruppenfuehrer Bormann." He also notes that he bought them for 30 Pounds Sterling each.

This Purchase Ledger record is really nice material, given that the expert Klietmann examined the badge and listed it in his book in 1970, stating it to be an original Third Reich piece. He also noted the dimensions of the badge. It is a specially produced jeweler's piece of the highest quality. The purpose for which it was made, and for whom, is lost in the mist of time.

Attached Files

Coburg Badge (Variant) - Purchase Record - David Littlejohn5.jpg (186.8 KB, 183 views)

**Runic** · 11-02-2017, 08:06 PM

Many of you have seen these, but here are some pictures, thanks to Christopher Ailsby, of the jeweler made badge. Note the quality!

Attached Files

**Runic** · 11-02-2017, 08:08 PM

Detail pictures:

Attached Files

Coburg Badge (Variant) - Cleaned jointing of swastika.jpg (150.4 KB, 200 views)
Coburg Badge (Variant) - hilt fieials are super imposed on the badge.jpg (138.7 KB, 198 views)

**Runic** · 11-02-2017, 08:09 PM

Details:

Attached Files

**Runic** · 11-02-2017, 08:13 PM

Close-ups:

Attached Files

Coburg Badge (Variant) - sword tip over the edge.jpg (143.6 KB, 225 views)
Coburg Badge (Variant) - View of the line joint of the sword and the swastika.jpg (154.8 KB, 229 views)

**Br. James** · 11-03-2017, 01:14 PM

Hi Runic,

Thanks for your welcome to this conversation; it's always a pleasure to chat with friends! And thanks, too, for the photos of this unique CB and of David Littlejohn's acquisition log book. There is no doubt in my mind that this piece is a beautiful representation of a CB...the problem is that it comes to us with no documentation from the period it represents. Perhaps this was someone's original suggested design for what the CB should look like; or perhaps it was intended to be a special award example which Hitler could present to special persons who were ineligible to receive the original bronze-colored CB (like the 2nd Issue BO or the AH Honorary version of the GPB was); or perhaps it was an entirely made-up fantasy piece created after the war for some unknown reason? We just don't have any answer to either of the first two suppositions, which leaves us with the probability that the third supposition could be the truth.

David Littlejohn was one of the early authors in our hobby who collected TR artifacts, researched them as best he could in the 1960s, and wrote books about them. Collectors today are still indebted to him and others of his time for their efforts to help us understand and appreciate this wonderful hobby. His log book tells us that in 1964 he acquired a CB which he believed to have once belonged to NSKK-Gruppenführer Albert Bormann, though Littlejohn makes no mention of who he acquired this piece from, only stating: "Formerly belonged to NSKK Obergruppenführer Albert Bormann." (Bormann was never held the rank of an Obergruppenführer).

We understand that Dr. Klietmann inspected the piece which then belonged to Littlejohn and is now in Christopher Ailsby's collection and that Klietmann believed it to be of Third Reich manufacture and of unknown background, but the good doctor -- whose opinions have long been and continue to be of great regard in this hobby -- did not leave us with any reference as to why he thought what he thought about this piece, though he did include reference to such a piece in his 1971 book on German badges and awards of the TR era. Klietmann also stated that, in his opinion, this CB was "a custom-made" article...which may mean that he understood it to be a one-of-a-kind badge.

Others who have written about TR badges have a varied history regarding this unique CB: Dr. Heinrich Doehle, an SS officer and long-time German civil servant and Under Secretary in the Presidential Chancellery who produced a series of authorized books on these subjects in the 1930s/40s, made no mention of this unique CB in his works. On the other hand, Mickey Huffman, author of "Hitler's Favorite Political Badges and Decorations" in 1990 -- a highly regarded work among collectors -- stated: "Other authorities in their books...all refer to another Coburg badge made of silver with a red swastika. It seems to have been one specially made." So, IMHO, here we have an absence of reference to this unique CB from the TR era directly, though a number of regarded authors and collectors in the post-war era seemingly have accepted such a piece as genuine to the period...though without stating their reasons for this opinion.

This is quite a thought-provoking and a research-provoking item and I hope you receive my own thoughts with the good wishes I enclose. Cheers!

Br. James

**Tony T-S** · 11-03-2017, 04:14 PM

A lovely badge, but as I said before, follows standard postwar design, the side arms of the swaz spreading much further onto the wreath than those of the first and second pattern examples we've been enjoying in this thread. Souval followed this design with his postwar examples and everyone has copied it since. Now, either this is a pre war special all the copiers have copied from, or it is the best postwar example you'll find. The detail on the buildings is the best there is.

No documentation or photographic evidence, so we can't know until there is. Having said all that, it is still a beautiful representation.

**Military** · 11-03-2017, 07:10 PM

Hi agree with Br James and Tony that there is no period mention of the this special mention of the badge and anything further is thus speculation. The notebook only serves to record when it was purchased but nothing of a historical record. No doubt that it is a museum grade piece with beautiful details, but I am still not convinced that it was a TR badge. The same goes to the other discussion of the prototype Blood Order.

Mil

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