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    #1

    Dies for 1934 RPT Tinnie and Westwall Medal?

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    #2
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      #3
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        #4
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          #5
          Guys, I need some help on these.

          A very good friend gave me these "dies" as a gift. A wonderful gesture.

          These dies are for the 1934 RPT tinnie, and the Westwall Medal.

          He even included the final finished medals for comparison. The small 1934 RPT is not really a tinnie per se, and is actually a fairly thick medal. I've never seen an example before. It is Lauer marked.

          The Westwall die has the shovel on top of the sword, which as can be seen in the actual Westwall Medal is reversed, with the sword over the shovel.

          These dies are magnetic.

          I have seen medal dies before, and these clearly do not match what I have previously seen.

          What are these?

          Maybe Dietrich can help us on this issue of medal making.
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Gary Symonds; 02-21-2016, 07:39 PM.

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            #6
            What a gift -- "a wonderful gesture" INDEED! Congrats!!

            Br. James

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              #7
              Could these be the die 'mothers'? From what I understand, a large size steel piece was made from the model maker's original design, which was used to produce the small sized working dies.
              Erich
              Festina lente!

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post
                Guys, I need some help on these.

                A very good friend gave me these "dies" as a gift. A wonderful gesture.

                These dies are for the 1934 RPT tinnie, and the Westwall Medal.

                He even included the final finished medals for comparison. The small 1934 RPT is not really a tinnie per se, and is actually a fairly thick medal. I've never seen an example before. It is Lauer marked.

                The Westwall die has the shovel on top of the sword, which as can be seen in the actual Westwall Medal is reversed, with the sword over the shovel.

                These dies are magnetic.

                I have seen medal dies before, and these clearly do not match what I have previously seen.

                What are these?

                Maybe Dietrich can help us on this issue of medal making.
                Hi Gary:

                These would have been used to create the models that would then be mounted onto the transfer engraver (and reduced), which would become the master hubs. The master hub would be pressed into a blank die, creating the master die.
                Last edited by GiuseppeC; 02-22-2016, 08:45 PM.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by GiuseppeC View Post
                  Hi Gary:

                  These would have been used to create the models that would then be mounted onto the transfer engraver (and reduced), which would become the master hubs. The master hub would be pressed into a blank die, creating the master die.
                  Giuseppe, thanks for the help.
                  I am in ignorance as to what you mean by a "model."
                  These sort of look like models to me.
                  Could you please go into a little more detail?
                  Thanks.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    These are not dies as they are to thin the way dies were made was a front or master die would be engraved or spark eroded with the details taken from a large sized drawing that had been copied onto a lino cut this gives you a front die .the back die can be flat or convex depending on the badge if its a hollow back award the back die (known as the force ) a heated blank that is drop forged onto the front die several times to give it the detail .if its a double sided medal you have 2 engraved dies.If the die wears out they just cut a new one as they were not expensive tools and most firms at that time would have die cutters in house all this die mother stuff is made up collector . its as easy as the above .all this info was told to me by a medal stamper who worked in medal and badge stamping from 14 years old to his 70th birthday

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post
                      Giuseppe, thanks for the help.
                      I am in ignorance as to what you mean by a "model."
                      These sort of look like models to me.
                      Could you please go into a little more detail?
                      Thanks.
                      Hi Gary:

                      This video will explain it better than I can: (apologies for the announcers voice):

                      http://www.royalmintmuseum.org.uk/ed...ie-making.html

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Lloyds View Post
                        These are not dies as they are to thin the way dies were made was a front or master die would be engraved or spark eroded with the details taken from a large sized drawing that had been copied onto a lino cut this gives you a front die .the back die can be flat or convex depending on the badge if its a hollow back award the back die (known as the force ) a heated blank that is drop forged onto the front die several times to give it the detail .if its a double sided medal you have 2 engraved dies.If the die wears out they just cut a new one as they were not expensive tools and most firms at that time would have die cutters in house all this die mother stuff is made up collector . its as easy as the above .all this info was told to me by a medal stamper who worked in medal and badge stamping from 14 years old to his 70th birthday
                        I would disagree re the die mother being a "made up collector "(sic). It's well documented that large scale masters were used to make up new dies when needed, and they are still used today.
                        Erich
                        Festina lente!

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                          #13
                          A large scale master is not a metal die its a over sized template normally a lino cut in the 1940s to pantagraph down to spark erode a metal die

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Lloyds View Post
                            A large scale master is not a metal die its a over sized template normally a lino cut in the 1940s to pantagraph down to spark erode a metal die
                            Hi Lloyds:

                            The dies that were used in making tinnies weren't made through spark erosion, as the technology in use at the time had not yet evolved to a level of precision to suit it for that purpose. At the time, EDM was primarily used as a means of retrieving precision-made tools that broke, or had gotten stuck in softer-metal surroundings.

                            http://edmtechman.com/about.cfm?pg=2&chap=1

                            What Gary has posted, are the metal masters that would have been used to create smaller master dies, via a transfer engraver (similar to a pantograph), so you are correct about that.

                            Here's some reading material on the Janvier (referenced in the video, in use worldwide, at the time Gary's masters were being made:

                            https://medalblog.wordpress.com/2010...rs_pantograph/

                            Related Note: A couple of weeks back, I wrote a superficial study on die states in tinnies:
                            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=845127

                            Die characteristics will show the same traits across thousands or millions of manufactured copies, with only minor variations that are the result of natural wear to the dies' themselves.

                            Best,

                            A
                            Last edited by GiuseppeC; 02-24-2016, 08:54 AM.

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