Frontbann Badge - RZM 21

[butschekantiques]

Hello everyone,

I´m never sure on those. Any feedback appreciated.

Thanks!
Klaus

www.ratisbons +++ www.ratisbons.com

[Thomas Bendixen]

I would add it to my collection any time

Cheers Thomas

[Br. James]

So would I!

Br. James

[Stan]

Fantastic. I have one just like it

Stan

[jack1]

Can not see any pictures to the thread ????

[MFarbe68]

Can not see any pictures to the thread ????

Jack1 Hi.
Maybe it is that the images were taken away because of the new videos about this badge, showing that it is a not genuine. I wont say this is the reason, but it looks very much like it after so long. I found this conversation from the k98k forum.

Here are the videos in parts I and II. links are allowed i am sure. If not please delete.
1 and 2 below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hohKKqnnkc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSez4vJHhus

[muzrub]

Jack1 Hi.
Maybe it is that the images were taken away because of the new videos about this badge, showing that it is a not genuine. I wont say this is the reason, but it looks very much like it after so long. I found this conversation from the k98k forum.

Here are the videos in parts I and II. links are allowed i am sure. If not please delete.
1 and 2 below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hohKKqnnkc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSez4vJHhus

I welcome any information that protects the collector from making a bad buy. The collector community is always harping on about doing your homework to protect yourself from fakers and fraudsters... I certainly don't trust all the textbooks and old heads---- nobody should. We have a saying in Australia, Come in, spinner... look it up.

Cheers,

Jamie.

[jack1]

Thank you mate.
Mr Jo Rivett is outstanding in his research.

[jack1]

Fantastic. I have one just like it

Stan

[Stan]

Hello Jack.

Sorry to disappoint you but when I said that I had a badge just like it, I really meant "similar".

Mine is a nice original S&L mm'd "RZM 63"

Here are the photos.

Enjoy!

Stan

[MFarbe68]

jack1, in the videos it shows as well that the 63 rzm cannot be a genuine item because of the 1934 June Röhm-putsch!!. Am i correct?

[muzrub]

jack1, in the videos it shows as well that the 63 rzm cannot be a genuine item because of the 1934 June Röhm-putsch!!. Am i correct?

I'm glad I stumbled across this thread.
I followed the links posted and I think your assertion maybe valid.

Interesting stuff.

Rule one of collecting (insert collectable) is don't trust the story, research the item and establish a firm provenance. The facts must black and white fellow collectors.


Cheers,

Jamie.

[sjl]

I disagree with the timing issue on the RZM mark. Thousands of RZM licences had already been issued by the middle of 1934. The "M1" prefix didn't start until 1935. All the Frontbann RZM marked badges I've seen only have the license number (21 or 63) with no "M1", so that puts them in the last half of 1934. I don't have the date the Frontbann badge was removed from the authorized NSDAP list, but I've seen references that put it late 1934.

[Stan]

As further confirmation of Stephen's above point, the Mitteilung der Reichzeugmeisterei Nr 8, dated July 21 1934 stated:

"Each badge, as with all other party badges, must carry on the reverse side the copyrighted sign of the RZM and the number of the maker".

This is of course evidence that RZM-marked Frontbann badges were produced in the second half of 1934.

The other point is whether or not these badges were allowed to be worn after the end of 1934.

Angolia writes in FF&F that the badge was no longer authorised for wear by the end of 1934 yet Klietmann writes in OMJ31 dated Summer 1979:

"With new regulations regarding the wearing of awards at the end of 1934/ beginning of 1935, the badge was only allowed to be worn on the uniforms of branches of the NSDAP.

With the passing of laws for the protection of the party uniform, the Frontbann badge was no longer mentioned and the official purpose of it simply faded away".

Stan

[MFarbe68]

The other point is whether or not these badges were allowed to be worn after the end of 1934.

No SA uniforms allowed to be worn for that month of July!

And about the "markings" because as it shows in the video, the first priority was that all old Frontbann badges first be used up. But they did not even get that far, because at the same time this badge comes into the rzm papers, it is already forbidden.
Printed "A new badge in our sortiment" (an old badge that was around for 10 years already by this time) in July 1934, printed in September 1934 "Not allowed to be worn" and printed in July 1934 "Old badges first to be used up, and sent to the rzm to inspect" BUT NOT TIME to inspect any old badges or make any new badges, at the start of the July 1934 was the Röhm-putsch!


I talked the creator of the videos a when he made them, and he has assured me that there can be not rzm marked badges. He assured me the following, and i can seen already by the answers here he is 110% right:
Not my words, and if not OK, then please delete the quote.
(he also told me that what he found on the internet, 99% of Frontbann badges are copies, and he only saw two kind of originals, one with no markings at Weitze. and one with Berlin markings. But as they say in the videos, there must be more too, because it was already produced from 1924)

Can we make a new thread about rzm 63? if you like too, and you can please show nice clear detailed images of your badge so we can be sure it is not cast or fake? Because the video is claiming it is fake.

- believe me, all you will ever get from the same small group of people is pages of opinion. They will never try and help fellow collectors by showing better images of their items, and they will never admit that they are wrong. - do not forget that we are talking about a 1000 dollar item here, so those left holding the fake will never admit to anything. They`ll either flat out not participate on any thread concerning their item, sell them on the shy and then possibly express an opinion, or, they`ll just keep on doing what they have always done, and fill up forum after forum with nonsense, all backing each other up, of course.
- thanks, but I have no intentions of participating in any forum, and have no need to, as my videos are crystal clear. It is up to those who disagree, to prove anything I have said or shown, incorrect. To date, the only rebuttal you`ll read is personal attacks, slander, outright refusal to accept anything other than what they have asserted, or, the sound of silence. Hence the tone some of my videos have taken.
-, do not forget that you are trying to argue with people who do not read Gerrman, do not understand German, and therefore have a very limited understanding of the historical context of the items they are making wild claims about. Not forgetting that none of these individuals have contributed anything of relevance to any of the fora they cross-post on. Don`t take my word for it, look up their posts and read them, look at the images and information they are using to support their assumptions with... nothing, you will find nothing except the oldwig way, babble and more babble, stolen parts of other people`s posts that they seem to think, support their opinion, and repetitive nonsense.
If you can show me that I am incorrect here, and one of them has ever gone out of his way to do something even remotely close to detailed research, then I`d surely issue an apology, and even show it in a video if it pertained to an item I have reviewed. But the facts speak for themselves. So, do yourself that favor, and read up on their thousands upon thousands of posts across internet-Militaria-forum-land, and you`ll soon see "their way."

I`ll borrow the signature of a fellow collector and Admin of another non-dealer sponsored forum; "What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof". Facts,- we are interested in facts only if we wish to clarify controversial topics. A solid foundation for further debate cannot, and must never be started with or bsed on fables, opinions and oldwig Ra Ra. If you do, the debate is pointless and will collapse at some point.

-, no, I have chosen another way. And I know full well that they hate it, but the truth is, they have brought it upon their own heads. I tried for many years, on many different fora to debate with them, and they just would not have it. So I have chosen to show the interested, just how little they really know, and not just how wrong they are, but how they react to being wrong. This is hurting new collectors, so the next time you see one of them starting a thread saying "What`s happened to all the new collectors" or "OMG, The Militaria hobby is doomed", give them a pat on the back, because it is partially their fault!

Have I not been 100% correct so far with every prediction I have made, (Read the older mails, Quedlinburgabz. z.B) before and after a detailed article, book or video? I have, and once more, it is all their own doing as they continue down their trusted part of Ra Ra and personal attack.
-, you can post whatever you wish, wherever you want to, I have nothing whatsoever to hide, do not send secret mails for your eyes only. Everything I have done has always been out in the open, and for the good of the community.
(I place little to none importance on reputation or "years in the hobby" as I have found out myself, it almost always means that they know close to zilch. The true historian and researcher has no need to allude to the number of years he has, doing what he is, he simply needs to present facts, and let them speak for themselves.)
As the items come in, I will surely continue, but rely now on others to help me. So if there is no help, there can be no more videos. I do have some more items on the way, and it now all rests with collectors as to what they wish to see "exposed" or authenticated under the microscope from now on.
Next week there be a video or two coming about supposed French-produced awards, again, watch the videos, and then read the forum "Ra Ra", and as soon as I upload the first, I`ll send you a mail with my predictions as to how it will evolve, and I will be right without doubt, because they have nothing of substance to offer, nothing except old fables and denial! Or, as you soon see, "De-Nile", complete with Amun-Ra! [QUOTE