Julius Streichers Blood order and Party badge for sale!

[Dansson]

I won't put my word on the golden partybadge thing,
Because I have never collected political items.
I t is just a thing I have heard.

All the best,
Daniel

[Br. James]

Hi Dansson,

There apparently were a few un-numbered BOs issued...at least the Brückner/USArmy list establishes that and includes Streicher among the recipients. But the mere idea of an unmarked GPB seems so far out of line, given what that badge was supposed to represent, and I'd like to know who the other four recipients of those un-numbered GPBs were.

Br. James

[Jo Rivett]

Hi Dansson,

There apparently were a few un-numbered BOs issued...at least the Brückner/USArmy list establishes that ....

James, in post one, documented historical fact proves it, directly from the "Nazi`s" mouth.
As far as the unmarked GPBs go, it had to have happened many times! How many small Deschlers & Fuess`s, as well as large Deschlers have we seen with primitive - homemade-like etched numbers? Quite a few

One could argue forever on why they have numbers etched into them unlike anything that we know as "standard" But the fact remains that they are alive and kicking, and more than one of them. This fact alone is enough to show us that indeed some left the factory (or factories) with no number, and the number was later etched by the owner, a jeweler, whoever...... for whatever reason. This alone is enough evidence to tell us that an unmarked GPB is more than possible.

Two examples. Image links here and here.

And not forgetting the spare stock!! Think about the roto-engraved larger GPBs.. they all left sans number, and had it later engraved, and the part where the numbers were engraved, subsequently re-gilded to cover the exposed messing.

[Richard]

Post one answers these questions:
Unser Recherchen haben ergeben, das ein Schreiben des Reichsführers SS Heinrich Himmler an den SS-Obergruppenführer Julius Schaub exakt dieses belegt:
"Lieber Kamerad Schaub! Der Führer wünscht, dass Du weiterhin Deinen Blutorden ohne Nummer trägst. Betrachte es als eine besondere Auszeichnung, da außer dem Führer selbst, nur Dir und dem verstorbenen Kameraden Schreck diese Ehre zuteil wurde. Heil Hitler! Heinrich Himmler"

Thanks Jo. So unusual to think the awarding of a blank award would be considered special. It's like saying "everyone has a numbered one making it unique, but you will receive an unnumbered one which, since two other people have one too, isn't."
Richard V

[Jo Rivett]

Thanks Jo. So unusual to think the awarding of a blank award would be considered special. It's like saying "everyone has a numbered one making it unique, but you will receive an unnumbered one which, since two other people have one too, isn't."
Richard V

Richard..
...thats what the letter from Himmler says.
As far as the Blutorden without numbers go, there could be a simple reason why a few are known without number, and it has surely nothing to do with Hitler "choosing" a few special people, or thinking that without a number it adds more "specialness".. thats the modern way of looking/thinking.

We know, when the final Parteiabzeichen design was shown to Hitler, Fuess "gave away the rest (he had brought to the meeting) free of charge."
So that would be to the few people who were sitting around the table debating/talking with Hitler after a mass meeting - as was almost always the case. (Private meetings after the mass meeting almost always took place amongst the inner circle)
This is all documented.
Surely it could be, that when the Blut was first shown at a private meeting after a speech - if it was approved - then the few that Fuess had with him, would have been given away to the people at that meeting. (Those who qualified of course)
All you would need for this scenario to be possible, would be to have all mentioned people in Germany, in München, at that after meeting-meeting-whenever that was. Schaub, Hitler, Streicher... and whoever else was suppose to have one sans number.
That is the way i would look at it - if i were looking for a reason as to why.
But i am not, because i know that there is no answer to the "why".
If there was, then we could explain why Deschler started to put a GPB number onto a regular Party Badge (LINK) but we cant.

[Br. James]

Hi Jo,

Thanks for adding the background to illuminate these un-numbered badges...and I hope you will pardon me if I'm still not convinced. The un-numbered BOs are not a problem for me, since I believe that they did in fact exist during the TR period. But I am still not convinced that the un-numbered GPBs existed during that time. As I said before, the very reason(s) these coveted badges existed was inextricably linked to either a Party Member's number or to a date of award by Hitler. But that very period link is not created in these notes between us, and there seems to be nothing else to refer to from the TR.

A very interesting illustration in your last note, Jo. Do you believe that that regular and numbered Party badge was made specially for Gregor Strasser? I've never seen another like it.

Br. James

[Jo Rivett]

James, no i dont believe it was "made" for him, simply an unnumbered badge that had a number etched into it. (Maybe even by a Deschler worker) Jamie Cross had another similar, but a Fuess not Deschler a few years ago. A set of 2 Fuess`s actually, one stamped normally with the number, the second with the number roughly etched into it.
And what about Keitel`s badge in the IMC 3/3 page 48? Also no "stamped" anything but rather only a hand-etched date and signature.

Maybe these badges were needed Dalli-Dalli and the easiest way to do it was to hand etch them, i have no idea, there could be many reasons. What i dont subscribe to at all, is that any person was specifically given an unmarked GPB. For any reason. If it happened, then by mistake, or at the very beginning of the Golden Party Badges life - introduction, when they were made and shown to either Hitler or whoever was responsible after that for checking quality/receiving them/engraving them etc...

I cant quite follow what you mean when you say you are not convinced they existed? Every GPB had no number when it was made, the number was stamped after the casing was struck, or in the case of engraved badges, engraved after the badge was completely finished, gilded, lock stock the lot. (Hence the extra gilding marks over the engraved numbers in many cases)

So of course they existed. The possibilities of how and why they survived today are endless. A worker pocked one, or a few, a soldier took a few home, a few found at the Deschler factory...same scenario could apply here as it could with unmarked Bluts.. a handful were shown at a meeting and passed around etc... or, a few were made with no number for the Party Museum and stolen after the war? a few found in Hitlers bunker i have no idea, but what we want to think or believe is irrelevant, an unmarked badge is starring you in the face on post 1, and it`s a genuine one as well.

I was asked about this GPB a few months ago, and didn't even find the fact that it had no number an issue at all, and gave my opinion that it was 100% original without any doubt.

I would leave the nice story, that by all accounts could well be true, out of the equation altogether, and just take note of two original items that for one or other reason have no numbers. It would only matter "why" to someone who is looking at them in the sense of definitely connecting them with Streicher - which would, IMHO, be wrong.

edit: I just noticed this:
Es handelt sich nicht nur um die höchste Auszeichnung der NSDAP, sondern auch um das weltweit einzige Set ohne Nummern
Since when were The Blutorden and GPB the highest party awards?

[andrewb]

A well known member on here turned it up in Florida and sold it on. Long story, bit of a sore point as he promised me first shout/opportunity after I gave my help on authenticity before his purchase, and then sold it without keeping the promise. It was a surprise given his standing. Of course it might be Streichers, or it might not be, no conclusive proof as its not numbered.

Jon,

I'd like to know who this person is so I can avoid any dealings with him. Name and shame I say. A promise is a promise and if he doesn't honor it then I for one want to know who he is...as with many other members.

Regards,
AB.

[Jon Fish]

Jon,

I'd like to know who this person is so I can avoid any dealings with him. Name and shame I say. A promise is a promise and if he doesn't honor it then I for one want to know who he is...as with many other members.

Regards,
AB.

Andrew, I considered it long and hard when it occurred, maybe 6 months ago, however I came to the decision that there was no point going head to head with him on here, members taking sides and all that business. I don't have the time, or anything to gain in any shape or form, revenge was not something I was seeking as these things usually have a tendency to even themselves up eventually. It might look like sour grapes from my end and see another member spat on WAF that we can probably all do without. I just wont ever deal with him again period. Most sad is that he recently was awarded 'Lifetime membership' so if a Moderator would like to ask me who it was I would be prepared to share the e-mails from the time etc, then I would do that for the sake of the integrity of the 'Lifetime membership' 'award'.

[Jo Rivett]

James, would you not agree, that the follow GPB is identical to the one in post 1? Finished, gilded, attachment affixed yet sans impressed number...except that someone (rather poorly) engraved a date into the reverse?
Of course it is, and if there was no dedication date, it would, or could, be "another Streicher badge" well, if you wanted it to be.

So the Streicher badge could also be a left-over, old stock.....

There would surely have been a stockpile of finished badges without numbers. (Large and small) Where i dont know, but this large Deschler is just another of many examples that there were. Maybe for quick-presentation? maybe they were needed on the spot and the person who was "giving/awarding/presenting" it could not wait weeks to place a regular order ? Maybe even old finished badges with no numbers kept back especially for "hand etching" seeing as they were already married... (instead of tossing away)

LINK to image

oh and by the way, discuss the items and not the people, keep thread on track, no insults etc.. and enjoy the day :-)

[Br. James]

OK, OK Jo! You have convinced me, particularly by your reasoning in separating a badge from an individual recipient. Just as with the AH Honorary GPBs, which cannot be linked back to any individual other than the number of people who received this honor on the same date, except by solid provenance, so too with the blank GPBs. While this is certainly an anomaly in terms of why a numbered GPB was awarded in the first place, I accept that such badges did exist in the period -- especially when considering that unfinished, un-numbered badges could have been "liberated" directly from the Deschler factory or from whichever manufacturer actually produced the Fuess-marked GPBs.

On a lesser level, I am left wondering whether the NSDAP records administered by FX Schwarz' office ever reflected that a certain Party Member was presented with an un-numbered GPB directly by Hitler? And if that Pg. wanted to order more copies of the GPB in the future, how would he prove that he legitimately received the award, since I presume that the regular personalized Besitzurkunde was not presented at the time the badge was? Maybe the paperwork was sent along later, but it was the paperwork that each Pg. carried that justified his/her wearing the badge, and if a person happened to be challenged while wearing an un-numbered GPB, even the paperwork would not substantiate that person's right to wear that badge!?

Thanks for your patient reasoning with me, Jo!

Br. James

[Jo Rivett]

James and some good questions raised as well.
For sure i have only "been on about" how an unmarked GPB could have gotten onto the market, and that they were indeed about, even fully finished badges with no numbers - later etched quickly by a novice or etched professionally... but the fact remains that they were about. No doubt.

Your questions at the end are very important, and all i can do is give you my opinion on them. Apart from being shown this lot some months ago, i have no idea about the circumstances, never heard the story on who or how they were found. All i have is the same description to follow that is in post one.

I dont even know if there is any letter from Himmler to Schraub, saying that he should just continue wearing his BO without number, and that the Führer says he should "look at it as a special honor" but imagine there will be, i cant see two dealers "inventing that story". So i`ll just buy the story for what it is, in any case as you said a few posts back, records prove it anyway that some BOs were about with no numbers.

I said already that i do not subscribe to any GPB without number being given to someone on purpose, regardless of who they were.

The Besizurkunde with matching number etc.. would surly never have applied to Big Wigs like these. Of course they had one, normal NS procedure, but i cannot see them carrying it with them, or being "checked" by anyone at any time to make sure that they were allowed to wear the GPB or other medals as was normal NS procedure. . Nonetheless, their Besitzurkunde as well as Medal/GPB etc.. would have been made normally, numbered etc.. normal procedure.

So i am of the opinion that Streichers GPB(s) were normal numbered badges, and so was his Besitzurkunde. I cannot see Streicher receiving an unnumbered GPB for any special reason at all.

But...... i can see how it may have been possible that he came into the possession of an unnumbered GPB.

The Blutorden you`d have to delve into deeper, but quite possibly there was no talk of them having individual numbers in the beginning, and the few that were first made were just "dealt out" to Hitler and whoever was around his table when they were shown the first time. There seems to be a paper trail and i`m sure if it were followed it would reveal more.

Of course it could never be proven that it was Streicher`s badge, and the Guys who sold it say that as well in their description It could be a GI who picked it up. And the Blut with no number, well lets also be fair here, it could be Streichers, it could also be one of Hitler`s, or, it could have been in the Fuess workshop until a year ago.

I think the sales price reflects this. Look at what HH are asking for Himmler's BO that Edward Scissor-hands got hold of? 20K just for that?

If i was offered this lot, which i was not, you had best believe i would have done-a-Colemann, and in my description you would have read "jew", "Stürmer", "Giftpilz" and anything else i could think of related to Streicher - yet totally unrelated to the items. And you`d best believe i would have repeated it here to, and on other forums, just so it sank in!

I think they are great items indeed and i have no doubt that in the near future they will surface again, on a dealers site, no doubt with 15K added to the price and a bit more hype.

[Br. James]

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, Jo; very helpful IMO. Regarding the BO, there are certainly differences between the Patzwall list and the Brückner/USArmy list: Patzwall shows Hitler as holding #1 with (?) following his name; Göring, FX Schwarz, Streicher and Julius Schreck are all missing from his list; and Schaub is listed as holding BO #296. In comparison, the Brückner/USArmy list shows Hitler, Göring, Schwarz and Streicher as "None;" Schreck is listed with "000;" and Schaub's name does not appear at all. Human error seems rife here!

I have a headache now!!

Cheers,

Br. James

[Jo Rivett]

James, another original Fuess with hand-etched number.
LINK

[Br. James]

Thanks, Jo! My "balloon" is burst!

Br. James